Rear O2 sensors, necessary or not? The definitive answer inside:

Shaun@AED

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Rear o2 sensors, do we *need* them?

The answer to this requires a bit of education on the O2 system in these Fords.

Most people know the Rear o2's are used to detect proper catalyst functions (o2 saturation rates from the catalyst), but many do not know they are used for something far more important for the performance crowd.

The Front O2 sensors are Wideband O2's which have an output range of 0 to 5 volts. Based on O2 content the UEGO sensor targets a given voltage, which is translated by the software to Lambda. They are VERY accurate at detecting o2 content.

The Rear O2 sensors on these vehicles are Narrow band type O2's which have a 0-1 volt range and are not accurate enough to read actual O2 content but rather they oscillate from full rich to full lean and the average value over these oscillations is accurate but only when near Stoich values. (IE at richer WOT A/F Narrow bands are not accurate)

Wideband O2's tend to 'drift' over time and they do need calibration from time to time to stay accurate. Some tuners replace their wideband o2's every 6 months to keep their O2 data accurate, others (like me) use high end ECM equipment that can be re-calibrated at any time. Innovate give this option with their aftermarket wideband o2's, as does NGK.

The amount of drift in the Wideband depends greatly on the temperatures and contaminants the o2 sensor sees, so it is difficult to speculate the frequency of necessary re-calibrations.

Ford in their wisdom took this into account and uses the Rear o2's to keep the Front O2's properly calibrated.
Narrow band O2's do not need to be calibrated as they are continually oscillating from full rich to full lean and the average is very accurate, but only when near Stoich, so Ford uses the Rears to re-calibrate Stoich of the Front O2's.

So what does this mean for the aftermarket?

This means *if* you remove your rear O2's and have them disabled in the tune the ECU will NEVER re-calibrate the Front Wideband O2 sensors and over time (impossible to say how long) they will start to drift and become inaccurate.

This also means if you KEEP the rear O2's installed and turned ON in the tune but have exhaust leaks between the Front and Rear O2's the ECU will incorrectly re-calibrate the front O2's and the car will end up running rich.

So the answer to the question 'Are Rear O2s necessary?' is Yes, *if* you wish to keep the front O2's in proper calibration. The other option is to replace your front O2's regularly to keep them in proper calibration. (like we do with race cars running stand alone systems).

My advise is to KEEP the Rear O2's properly installed and functioning in the tune while ensuring NO exhaust leaks are present up stream from the Rear O2 sensors.
 

gt5.0coyote

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Nice writeup Shaun! Thanks for the info, I didn't know this and I'm sure ALOT of guys don't. Just out of curiosity, do you write s/c tunes for the coyote?
 

KushBandit

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Great write up as usual Shaun, your knowledge is very much appreciated.

I'm curious, about how often should the wideband O2 sensors be replaced on a daily driven, full bolt-on car? I live in SoCal and run 91 with the occasional 100 octane fill up to help prevent detonation at the track, fwiw.
 
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Shaun@AED

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Nice writeup Shaun! Thanks for the info, I didn't know this and I'm sure ALOT of guys don't. Just out of curiosity, do you write s/c tunes for the coyote?

Yep

Great write up as usual Shaun, your knowledge is very much appreciated.

I'm curious, about how often should the wideband O2 sensors be replaced on a daily driven, full bolt-on car? I live in SoCal and run 91 with the occasional 100 octane fill up to help prevent detonation at the track, fwiw.

No need to replace front O2's if you keep the rears and have no exhaust leaks!
Without rear O2's it's impossible to guess at when the fronts would be out of calibration enough to cause a problem.
 

AKDMB

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Cool Info!

So does this mean it is appropriate to leave the rear 02's enabled in the tune, but disable the Cat Temp Control (or at least raise it to the same value as WOT Lambda table) and the related 02/Catalyst Tests? Any way to have the tune account for no catalytic converters but let the rear 02's account for the widebands aging?

I have always heard the following, or some variation of this at least.

- Set Rear 02 Sensor Config to "None", and "Disable" FAOSC (Fore/Aft Oxygen Sensor Control)

- Set Cat Temp Control, Flange Temp Control and 02 Sensor Temp Control to "Disabled"

- Set 02 Test, 02 MIL, Catalyst Test, Catalyst MIL all to "Disabled"

I know these may be named differently in SCT software, and I completely understand if you don't want to share this very valuable information.
 
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98 Saleen Cobra

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Great write up Shaun!! Just curious how often are you guys changing out the stand alones? I guess I probably should buy some spares lol!
 

jn2

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Cool Info!

- Set Rear 02 Sensor Config to "None", and "Disable" FAOSC (Fore/Aft Oxygen Sensor Control)

- Set Cat Temp Control, Flange Temp Control and 02 Sensor Temp Control to "Disabled"

- Set 02 Test, 02 MIL, Catalyst Test, Catalyst MIL all to "Disabled"

I know these may be named differently in SCT software, and I completely understand if you don't want to share this very valuable information.

That is how I have mine set. That is the proper way to disable them, but I believe from Shaun's post it prevents the ECM from re-calibrating the sensor over time(undefined amount).
 

gt5.0coyote

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Yep



No need to replace front O2's if you keep the rears and have no exhaust leaks!
Without rear O2's it's impossible to guess at when the fronts would be out of calibration enough to cause a problem.


Ok man cool. I thought I read somewhere that you only did them on the dyno. What is the rice for a s/c tune?
 

Riddick

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Thanks for posting this info, you always give us great info!! So, what does this mean for people running around with off road pipes? Is there a way to keep the rear o2s enabled so they can re calibrate the fronts but not throw a code?

If you cannot get around the code can you simply load a tune with the rear o2s on, drive around a few days to give time to re calibrate the fronts then simply reload the tune with the rears off?
 
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AKDMB

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That is how I have mine set. That is the proper way to disable them, but I believe from Shaun's post it prevents the ECM from re-calibrating the sensor over time(undefined amount).

So I guess the question now is, what is the bare minimum that needs to be turned off/disabled for Off Road Exhaust while still letting the 02's account for wideband aging?
 

Shaun@AED

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Ok man cool. I thought I read somewhere that you only did them on the dyno. What is the rice for a s/c tune?
Email me: [email protected]

Thanks for posting this info, you always give us great info!! So, what does this mean for people running around with off road pipes? Is there a way to keep the rear o2s enabled so they can re calibrate the fronts but not throw a code?

If you cannot get around the code can you simply load a tune with the rear o2s on, drive around a few days to give time to re calibrate the fronts then simply reload the tune with the rears off?

All AED tunes are setup with the rear O2's ON unless the rears are physically removed. Cats or not, long tubes or stock, does not matter and we do not throw codes. I've been tuning coyotes like this for 4 years once the parameters became available in SCT. (still waiting for 15+)

So I guess the question now is, what is the bare minimum that needs to be turned off/disabled for Off Road Exhaust while still letting the 02's account for wideband aging?
I'm sorry, I can't post tech like that.
I'm hear to educate the customer base, but not to educate on how to tune vehicles.
 

gt5.0coyote

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Email me: [email protected]



All AED tunes are setup with the rear O2's ON unless the rears are physically removed. Cats or not, long tubes or stock, does not matter and we do not throw codes. I've been tuning coyotes like this for 4 years once the parameters became available in SCT. (still waiting for 15+)


I'm sorry, I can't post tech like that.
I'm hear to educate the customer base, but not to educate on how to tune vehicles.

Sent!
 

Brutal Metal

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Rear o2 sensors, do we *need* them?

The answer to this requires a bit of education on the O2 system in these Fords.

Most people know the Rear o2's are used to detect proper catalyst functions (o2 saturation rates from the catalyst), but many do not know they are used for something far more important for the performance crowd.

The Front O2 sensors are Wideband O2's which have an output range of 0 to 5 volts. Based on O2 content the UEGO sensor targets a given voltage, which is translated by the software to Lambda. They are VERY accurate at detecting o2 content.

The Rear O2 sensors on these vehicles are Narrow band type O2's which have a 0-1 volt range and are not accurate enough to read actual O2 content but rather they oscillate from full rich to full lean and the average value over these oscillations is accurate but only when near Stoich values. (IE at richer WOT A/F Narrow bands are not accurate)

Wideband O2's tend to 'drift' over time and they do need calibration from time to time to stay accurate. Some tuners replace their wideband o2's every 6 months to keep their O2 data accurate, others (like me) use high end ECM equipment that can be re-calibrated at any time. Innovate give this option with their aftermarket wideband o2's, as does NGK.

The amount of drift in the Wideband depends greatly on the temperatures and contaminants the o2 sensor sees, so it is difficult to speculate the frequency of necessary re-calibrations.

Ford in their wisdom took this into account and uses the Rear o2's to keep the Front O2's properly calibrated.
Narrow band O2's do not need to be calibrated as they are continually oscillating from full rich to full lean and the average is very accurate, but only when near Stoich, so Ford uses the Rears to re-calibrate Stoich of the Front O2's.

So what does this mean for the aftermarket?

This means *if* you remove your rear O2's and have them disabled in the tune the ECU will NEVER re-calibrate the Front Wideband O2 sensors and over time (impossible to say how long) they will start to drift and become inaccurate.

This also means if you KEEP the rear O2's installed and turned ON in the tune but have exhaust leaks between the Front and Rear O2's the ECU will incorrectly re-calibrate the front O2's and the car will end up running rich.

So the answer to the question 'Are Rear O2s necessary?' is Yes, *if* you wish to keep the front O2's in proper calibration. The other option is to replace your front O2's regularly to keep them in proper calibration. (like we do with race cars running stand alone systems).

My advise is to KEEP the Rear O2's properly installed and functioning in the tune while ensuring NO exhaust leaks are present up stream from the Rear O2 sensors.

Any way to get around the check engine light if running an off road midpipe and keeping the rear 02's on in the tune?
 

beef97

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Hi Shaun! I've got a tune from JMS but I can't pass emissions because some of the sensors are turned off. I'm interested in getting a tune from you but is it possible to make revisions to the tune I currently have (email it to you) or would you want to just create a whole new one? Would your tune pass emissions test here in Texas? Super interesting read thanks for the info!
 

Shaun@AED

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Hi Shaun! I've got a tune from JMS but I can't pass emissions because some of the sensors are turned off. I'm interested in getting a tune from you but is it possible to make revisions to the tune I currently have (email it to you) or would you want to just create a whole new one? Would your tune pass emissions test here in Texas? Super interesting read thanks for the info!

No, I do not read other tuners work nor modify others work.
Passing emissions is not a problem assuming you have all factory emissions equipment in place. I do not modify the tune to make illegal setups pass emissions testing.
 

Brutal Metal

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Hey Shaun is there any issues with removing the oem PCV systems in the Coyotes and running breathers on both banks? This is how my Vortech Cobra is setup and I notice quite a few guys do that instead of a catch can. I don't have emission testing down here.
 

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