Pinging at WOT

[rattle_snake]

I have had intermittent ping/detonation problems under full throttle for the last year or so. Started as just a little ping after a gear change in the cooler months. Has slowly gotten worse, although not always related to outdoor temperature or a specific tank of fuel (91 octane). Happens one day, not the next. Now it is pinging all the time at WOT.
I pulled -3* of timing and pinging stopped, so I contacted tuner (again...) and got a revision (although too lean) and it didn't ping. I haven't been able to get any more support, so I am planning to change to a local tuner. I am concerned there is an issue with the car, and would like to try and figure it out before taking the car to get a new tune.
Now the car is pinging again with -3*, and needs -5* to get it to stop. I re-loaded the last tune I got from my tuner and now it pings as well... So this tells me that something is slowly deteriorating.
The car has no other known issues. I replaced the spark plugs and those that came out looked fine. The air filter and MAF are clean. FP DC is under 80%. I have taken several datalogs.

With my 'normal' tune with no change to timing (same tune run for 5 years) it pings badly.
timing = 22* @ 5000rpm. AFR = 11.8 IAT1 = 64 IAT2 = 124

Given timing is temperature related, I checked the readings of IAT1/2 with an infrared thermometer. Not sure what to look into next.

 

[01yellercobra]

Have you tried datalogging too see what the IAT is doing while moving? I think that would be a little more accurate then using the temp gun.

 

[nxhappy]

Torco my friend......get some ASAP before you blow your motor on that shitty 91 octane .... https://www.amazon.com/Torco-Accelerator-32oz-Best-Additive/dp/B004ZO3VN0

 

[Weather Man]

You should scope the pistons. Detonation can cause pitting. The pits can cause hot spots leading to preignition/detonation. The more pitting, the more timing has to be pulled.

 

[nxhappy]

you have too much advanced timing for 91 octane. Either drop the timing or add Torco. Or find 93 octane. Sounds like you need a new tune badly. Please don't run the motor hard until the pinging stops or you WILL melt the pistons.

 

[rattle_snake]

Have you tried datalogging too see what the IAT is doing while moving? I think that would be a little more accurate then using the temp gun.

The IATx values above are in 2nd gear @ WOT. I compared IATx measurement with infrared gun with KOEO

Torco my friend......get some ASAP before you blow your motor on that shitty 91 octane .... https://www.amazon.com/Torco-Accelerator-32oz-Best-Additive/dp/B004ZO3VN0

I have Torco on hand an use for N20. I can get rid of ping with reduced timing, however I want to find root cause of issue.

you have too much advanced timing for 91 octane. Either drop the timing or add Torco. Or find 93 octane. Sounds like you need a new tune badly. Please don't run the motor hard until the pinging stops or you WILL melt the pistons.

I've been very careful since this issue started, and always turn off the music/roll up the windows to listen for pinging at WOT. I have had 3* timing pulled out for some time now, the fact that it is starting to ping again tell me something is getting worse.

 

[rattle_snake]

You should scope the pistons. Detonation can cause pitting. The pits can cause hot spots leading to preignition/detonation. The more pitting, the more timing has to be pulled.

I ordered a scope will have a look tonight

 

[nxhappy]

did you check the AFR recently? That would also cause detonation. What plugs are you running? Have you checked them recently as well as the gap? If the gap opened up that would cause the issue. Either way with that 2.80 upper you should always use Torco just as a safety net. 91 just isn't enough octane, especially when you are toying with extra boost and advanced timing.

 

[rattle_snake]

did you check the AFR recently? That would also cause detonation. What plugs are you running? Have you checked them recently as well as the gap? If the gap opened up that would cause the issue. Either way with that 2.80 upper you should always use Torco just as a safety net. 91 just isn't enough octane, especially when you are toying with extra boost and advanced timing.

The data above is from a few days ago. I don't see an issue with AFR either on the gauge or when logging. Wideband was recently calibrated. Plugs are NGK BR7EF gapped at 0.032. I installed new plugs last week, no change from the old set which looked fine and had consistent gap at 0.032. I run colder '7s' instead of BR6s for the N20. I don't want to spray until I have this figure out...

 

[nxhappy]

did the old plugs have signs of detonation? Maybe you are hearing something else ??? I agree a bore scope check is needed.

22 degrees adv. timing is still too much timing for 91 octane. It would be safer with 20-21 degrees. And if spraying I would pull even more.

 

[MalcolmV8]

If you can hear detonation its already really bad. You should stop doing that or you'll be building an engine as these guys have said. Add octane, pull timing or heck I'd get a J&S Vampire anti-knock box. It will pull only as much as needed timing from the individual cylinders that are knocking to stop them knocking. It picks up knock long before its audible and damaging and pulls timing accordingly. Yeah it costs $600 for one of them but its much cheaper and easier than buying a new engine.

 

[01yellercobra]

did you check the AFR recently? That would also cause detonation. What plugs are you running? Have you checked them recently as well as the gap? If the gap opened up that would cause the issue. Either way with that 2.80 upper you should always use Torco just as a safety net. 91 just isn't enough octane, especially when you are toying with extra boost and advanced timing.

I think that's a little broad. I'm on a 2.8 upper with 91 and I don't have any pinging issues. But I only have 18 degrees in my compared to his 22. It's not like 91 can't handle any boost at all.

 

[MalcolmV8]

I think that's a little broad. I'm on a 2.8 upper with 91 and I don't have any pinging issues. But I only have 18 degrees in my compared to his 22. It's not like 91 can't handle any boost at all.

I'd agree. When I had my ported Eaton with a 2.76 pulley I ran 22 ~ 23 degrees on 91 pump. No pinging.

 

[P49Y-CY]

I think that's a little broad. I'm on a 2.8 upper with 91 and I don't have any pinging issues. But I only have 18 degrees in my compared to his 22. It's not like 91 can't handle any boost at all.

I'd agree. When I had my ported Eaton with a 2.76 pulley I ran 22 ~ 23 degrees on 91 pump. No pinging.

+1, its all about the tune. i run both of my 2.80 and 2.93 are on 91 pump gas, and thanks to an awesome dyno tune by a reputable local tuner (greg at ret), i have never had even the slightest hint of any pinging whatsoever. both engines run incredible and perform well.

like the op, i had an amazon tune when i first got pullied, but i could tell it wasn't right at wot and i could hear some pinging. i back and forthed with rick a couple times and he emailed a couple of revisions, but honestly, it was never right.

his canned tune for a stock pulley engine was good, however.

OP, smart move that you go to a solid tuner who is local to you - he can tell you what's up. best of luck with it.

 

[rattle_snake]

If you can hear detonation its already really bad. You should stop doing that or you'll be building an engine as these guys have said. Add octane, pull timing or heck I'd get a J&S Vampire anti-knock box. It will pull only as much as needed timing from the individual cylinders that are knocking to stop them knocking. It picks up knock long before its audible and damaging and pulls timing accordingly. Yeah it costs $600 for one of them but its much cheaper and easier than buying a new engine.

Some history regarding this issue. On the first detection of pinging I contacted tuner (Dec 2015) specifically asking about timing and 91 fuel. This went nowhere. Since that day, I have been paranoid of damage and have only gone WOT with music off/windows up so I can hear any ping if present. The car has not had any nitrous, been to the track, or any long multi-gear pulls since. Next detection of ping was Oct 2016 (once temps got below 100) so I pulled -3* to stop ping, contacted tuner again and was able to get one revision (although not usable). Sent logs but can't get a response so I have selected a local tuner. With timing at -3* I detected another ping event, so I pulled 2* more to prevent and car hasn't been WOT since.
I lift immediately at any sign of ping, so the car was never run at WOT with audible pinging.

I looked at pistons 5-8 and there are signs of detonation. I can easily pull more timing. Would the Vampire help at this point?

 

[MalcolmV8]

Some history regarding this issue. On the first detection of pinging I contacted tuner (Dec 2015) specifically asking about timing and 91 fuel. This went nowhere. Since that day, I have been paranoid of damage and have only gone WOT with music off/windows up so I can hear any ping if present. The car has not had any nitrous, been to the track, or any long multi-gear pulls since. Next detection of ping was Oct 2016 (once temps got below 100) so I pulled -3* to stop ping, contacted tuner again and was able to get one revision (although not usable). Sent logs but can't get a response so I have selected a local tuner. With timing at -3* I detected another ping event, so I pulled 2* more to prevent and car hasn't been WOT since.
I lift immediately at any sign of ping, so the car was never run at WOT with audible pinging.

I looked at pistons 5-8 and there are signs of detonation. I can easily pull more timing. Would the Vampire help at this point?

Yes the Vampire most absolutely will help. As mentioned above you could have other things going on, hot spots from prior detonation damage etc.
Depending on your view the Vampire could be considered a bandaid but when it stops you from blowing up the engine from detonation I'd say its well worth it. Especially when you're pulling timing and it seems to temporarily fix the issue. It sounds like you have a deteriorating condition.

 

[filthymcnasty]

While glancing through this thread, I heard mention of Amazon Tuning. Yikes!

I've had three cars tuned by them in the past ('03 Cobra, '02 Lightning, '10 GT500).

I will not go into the details of my experiences with them (had multiple tunes done by them because of their reputation in the mid-2000s), but suffice to say that I can't believe they are still in business.

But, don't believe me. Just do a Google search of "Amazon Tuning Solutions reviews" and that will tell all.

Bottom line, I don't recommend driving even at part throttle with their tunes.

 

[nxhappy]

compression test needs to be done to see the engines condition.

 

[c6zhombre]

That engine is probably toast or at least lost significant compression...trying to play "lift the throttle" at "audible" pinging sounds is too little too late. That tuner is horrible...should have got a quality retune from a reputable tuner a loooong time ago

 

[rattle_snake]

Cold and dry all holes were around 150psi and within 10% of one another. Made appointment to get new tune next week.