This.
New TSB concerning aftermarket tuning and modifications
- Thread starter KenB
- Start date
This.
from the t-5 till now. All the transmissons have shifted like crap. tons of TSB's on them. i dont get the difference. they all go into gear hard. Man up and deal with it. If u have a legit problem, then get it fixed
I call BS on this.. Have never heard of a tuner say you can flash to stock and make a tune "invisible".... Do you have a link to at least 1 reputable tuner saying this?:dw:
this.:beer:
It isnt a problem. Its normal. Every transmission never shifted like a lexus. They are always rough. Get over it.
I put a T-56 in my Mach 1 that made torque like no other. Shifted just fine. I think your a little confused. And that's being nice.:bored:
whatever, i never had an issue, but compared to a honda civic, it shifts hard.
A busted synchro and sheered teeth off 2nd gear isn't a clutch issue.
Car is back on the road with a new owner though and is now headers/full exhaust. Cams coming soon. No new issues that I've heard of so it might have just been a shitty improperly hardened gear set. Don't know, don't care...it was shitty customer service that was the issue.
Car is back on the road with a new owner though and is now headers/full exhaust. Cams coming soon. No new issues that I've heard of so it might have just been a shitty improperly hardened gear set. Don't know, don't care...it was shitty customer service that was the issue.
That's me. I've not had a good detail since.
Here is a basic introduction to the OBD communication protocol according to ISO 15031:orgchem said:
Mode 01 is used to identify what powertrain information is available to the scan tool.
Mode 02 displays Freeze Frame data.
Mode 03 lists the emission-related "confirmed" diagnostic trouble codes stored. It displays exact numeric, 4 digit codes identifying the faults.
Mode 04 is used to clear emission-related diagnostic information. This includes clearing the stored pending/confirmed DTCs and Freeze Frame data.
Mode 05 displays the oxygen sensor monitor screen and the test results gathered about the oxygen sensor.
There are ten numbers available for diagnostics:
- 01 Rich-to-Lean O2 sensor threshold voltage
- 02 Lean-to-Rich O2 sensor threshold voltage
- 03 Low sensor voltage threshold for switch time measurement
- 04 High sensor voltage threshold for switch time measurement
- 05 Rich-to-Lean switch time in ms
- 06 Lean-to Rich switch time in ms
- 07 Minimum voltage for test
- 08 Maximum voltage for test
- 09 Time between voltage transitions in ms
Mode 06 is a Request for On-Board Monitoring Test Results for Continuously and Non-Continuously Monitored System. There are typically a minimum value, a maximum value, and a current value for each non-continuous monitor.
Mode 07 is a Request for emission-related diagnostic trouble codes detected during current or last completed driving cycle. It enables the external test equipment to obtain "pending" diagnostic trouble codes detected during current or last completed driving cycle for emission-related components/systems. This is used by service technicians after a vehicle repair, and after clearing diagnostic information to see test results after a single driving cycle to determine if the repair has fixed the problem.
Mode 08 could enable the off-board test device to control the operation of an on-board system, test, or component.
Mode 09 is used to retrieve vehicle information. Among others, the following information is available:
VIN (Vehicle Identification Number): Vehicle ID
CALID (Calibration Identification): ID for the software installed on the ECU
CVN (Calibration Verification Number): Number used to verify the integrity of the vehicle software. The manufacturer is responsible for determining the method of calculating CVN(s), e.g. using checksum.
In-use performance counters
Gasoline engine : Catalyst, Primary oxygen sensor, Evaporating system, EGR system, VVT system, Secondary air system, and Secondary oxygen sensor
Diesel engine : NMHC catalyst, NOx reduction catalyst, NOx adsborber Particulate matter filter, Exhaust gas sensor, EGR system, VVT system, Boost pressure control, Fuel system.
Mode 0A lists emission-related "permanent" diagnostic trouble codes stored. As per CARB, any diagnostic trouble codes that is commanding MIL on and stored into non-volatile memory shall be logged as a permanent fault code.
On-board diagnostics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A generic overview here.
BS?28 said:
VMP Tuning - Buy Ford SCT & GM Custom Handheld Flash Tuners Performance Economy Towing: 07-09 Shelby GT500 Custom SCT X3 & FRPP 113MM Intake optional 2.59 pulleyJustin at VMP said:
GT500 or not, you only asked for one reputable tuner. There's more if you care to look.
SicShelby09
Banned
I was told that the only way they can tell the computer was messed with is if there was not enough drive cycles recorded. Or the long term fuel trims are not learned enough. Its like resetting your average gas mileage in your car. At first it reads high or low depending on how you are driving at the moment, but after a while of driving it starts to get to your actual average. It needs time to calculate it. The same holds true for the long term fuel trims. They can tell if you just flashed it, but if the car is drivable, then wait a week and continue to drive it after you flash it back to let the computer relearn the fuel trims. Then you should be ok.
If it is possible, I'm surprised none of the big tuners have tested the specifics.
SicShelby09
Banned
Im not sure, but I bet a few days of DDing it would cover it. But if your car wont start, or its not drivable then you are screwed.
we have a tool at work that plugs into the OBDII port and it beeps when the computer is reset. So we have to do drive cycles before passing emissions In pa the emissions tester will pick up a check engine light. So people think they are slick and dicounect their battery. the emissions machine picks up battery reset.
here's the TB flow chart that goes with the TSB along with some legal references:
http://www.stangtv.com/news/dont-modify-your-mustang-because-fords-new-tsb-says-so/
http://www.stangtv.com/news/dont-modify-your-mustang-because-fords-new-tsb-says-so/
really long article that everyone needs to read...
By Jim Crider, on July 7th, 2011
So the big news Wednesday was that Ford issued a TSB telling its dealers how to check for aftermarket parts and/or PCM calibrations on 2011+ Mustangs. Every time something like this comes to light (and this is far from the first such bulletin from Ford or, for that matter, other OEMs), the various and sundry interweb fora erupt in dismay, and folks start trotting out the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 and proclaiming “Ford can’t do that!”
Yes, Ford (or any other auto manufacturer) can do that. Magnuson-Moss was never intended to encompass modifications from factory specification. If you choose to modify your under-warranty automobile, you pays your moneys and you takes your chances. Muck with the PCM cal and you can expect the powertrain warranty to be void. I don’t know why people are surprised by this.
Some background: for 18-plus years, I was one of the guys at “the factory” (in fact, I worked in a succession of Herman Miller and Steelcase cubicles) who designed bits and pieces of the cars and trucks you buy and drive. One of our jobs was to look at all the warranty return parts and determine root cause of failure (if possible), so we could fix them. I’ve got time in at all of the US “Big 3” and a supplier who sold to pretty much everyone.
Back in the day, we’d get people trying to warranty the then-brand-new 4.6L 4V Cobra motors with broken piston ring lands or #7 con rod bearing pounded into mulch and the owners would deny, deny, deny, they’d had a blower and/or nitrous on it until we showed them how we knew they were lying (hint: everything attached to a car leaves a witness mark, and the OEMs know what the fasteners look like after the initial installation – and what they look like after someone’s undone/reinstalled them). Even underdrive pulleys were enough to make one of those engines cook when run hard in a hot climate — yeah, you’d get 6 hp, but you’d drop coolant flow from 58 GPM to 36 GPM at peak engine power, just as it needs all the flow it can get. Oops. Oh, and to the guy who called and asked if we could just pull those high-flow injectors and the aluminum flywheel he’d installed on the destroyed engine but forgot to remove before towing the broken car to the dealer, and ship them back to him via UPS? Yeah, not gonna happen.
But the main thing here is very simple: the manufacturer warranties the car as they produced it. Change the car, and the manufacturer is no longer responsible for the configuration of whatever you changed — you are. The Magnuson-Moss Act was not, and is not, intended to cover aftermarket parts that deviate from factory specification. Its intent then and now is to cover things like oil, filters, bulbs — common maintenance items — and preventing the OEM from requiring their captive brand of maintenance part in order to maintain warranty coverage (see §2302(c) for this section of the Act). You can use a Fram or Purolator or Mobil oil filter that’s equivalent to the OEM filter, for example. M-M does not, and has never intended that the OEM can’t void your powertrain warranty if you put a blower on it and pop the motor, or flash an aftermarket cal into the ECM that doesn’t have the OEM cal’s detonation protection strategy, leading to holes torched in piston tops.
Lots of aftermarket hot-rod companies hide behind Magnuson-Moss. They’re wrong. The better aftermarket companies warranty their product. The best warranty the downstream systems on the car from the consequences of using the product, effectively replacing the now-voided OEM warranty. They do it in writing, up front.
I ran into this all the time with the 4.6L 4V crowd, and the PowerStroke crowd. Folks just couldn’t grokk why Ford wouldn’t warranty their blowed-up engines and driveline parts after they’d increased power output by at least 50%, and often 100% or more over the stock value. They’d trot out Magnuson-Moss like it was some kind of magic shield.
Um, no.
Take a look at US Code Title 15, Chapter 50, § 2304(c). That tells you how an OEM can deny a warranty claim or outright void the related warranty, in the event of modification or abuse of the product, damage caused by the consumer, or failure of the consumer to properly maintain the product.
So why do people think it’s the OEM’s fault that their engines, transmissions, etc. cannot reliably handle power outputs well beyond the OEM power/torque rating? There’s this perception (and yes, I’m aware that perception = reality for most folks) that the OEMs (and this goes for pretty much all of them) somehow build a lot of extra power-making capacity into their engines, and “detune them” for [insurance, liability, cost-cutting, fuel-economy, emissions, some combo of the above] reasons, and all one needs to do is, say, put some bigger injectors on it and flash the ECM and voila! You’ve unlocked the hidden potential of the engine The Man doesn’t want you to have.
There’s another reason OEMs don’t sell production vehicles with engines tuned to the bleeding edge of their power capability: reliability. Let’s look at a connecting rod. You’re an OEM. There’s a core set of parts that you are required by law to warranty for as much as 15 years/150K miles (California’s PZEV warranty — and it doesn’t make economic sense to make 2 different specs of engine internals). You have a target power output that your marketing requires. Thus, the connecting rod must be able to safely manage S psi of stress from the combination of cylinder pressure and mechanical loading through N cycles without moving into the nasty part of the S-N fatigue curve. You size the connecting rod and choose its material/manufacturing process accordingly, also keeping in mind the price point marketing requires and the mass targets necessary to meet overall vehicle mass targets that effect emissions/fuel economy testing inertia weight class as well as other performance parameters. Do you see the tap-dance involved in keeping all these — and more — parameters met? The rest of the engine and driveline is specified similarly.
Now some aftermarket guy with a PC and a scan tool “unlocks the hidden power” of the engine and increases output by, say 25%. If you’re a 5.0L Coyote engine, in Boss 302 trim and with the TracKey, that’s upping the power from 444 net bhp at the flywheel to 555ish net bhp at the flywheel, and let’s say it’s at the same RPM to take that part out of the equation. How does that happen? Well, you have to make more torque at the given RPM. That means the amount of force imparted to the crankshaft by the connecting rods increases by that same proportion — in other words, the cylinder pressure increases by that amount. This increases the stress on the connecting rod, also by that same proportion. Result? Increasing the stress reduces the number of cycles that connecting rod can take before it fatigues to the point of failure. Depending on the material and design of the rod, and how close to the “knee” in the S-N curve they were to begin with, this could mean the rods only make it 80K miles, it could also mean the rods only make it 24K miles before you’d expect to see failures.
Who gets blamed when guys with blowers, nitrous, aftermarket tunes, etc., start popping the bottom ends out of their engines? Why, not the aftermarket! It’s Ford’s fault that somehow they didn’t design their engine to produce double its OEM rated output without modification.
Regarding the 2011+ Mustang and the TSB released Wednesday, and knowing what I know about the folks involved in the Coyote engine (there are SEVERAL licensed racers, ranging from SCCA and NASA types to NHRA/IHRA drag racers, involved with that engine and with the car), I’m comfortable saying there’s a reasonable margin baked into the engine — and you can see it in the Boss 302 and TracKey tunes above and beyond the base GT tune. But it’s REALLY easy for the aftermarket to exceed that margin — all it may take is a hot day, a “small” 150hp shot of nitrous, and a partially-clogged fuel filter to make it go boom.
This TSB isn’t really different from other statements issued to dealers on previous performance versions of the Mustang, or other models (PowerStroke diesels, for instance) — to be aware of aftermarket modifications that may have adversely affected the reliability of the system they’re being asked to warranty. A K&N filter element in the stock airbox or the Ford Racing cold-air kit (that’s standard on Boss and GT500 models)? No problem. PowerDyne blower? Problem, even though it’s “just a mod to the air intake”.
Anyway, even though I’m not in that business anymore, it’s frustrating that people who wouldn’t think twice about building the bottom end of their Windsor motor with quality parts to support the 15 psi of boost from the Vortech T-trim they intend to install will, at the same time, bitch about how it’s Ford’s fault they can’t double the HP of their PowerStroke tow vehicle without popping the head gasket or scattering the bottom end. And it sounds like some of those same folks are starting to do the same with Coyotes.
Folks, when you have something under warranty, and you choose to modify it for more performance, don’t expect the OEM to honor the warranty on the modified parts or systems (downstream systems included: if you mod the engine, don’t expect warranty relief on the clutch, transmission, or final drive). As I said at the beginning of the article, you pays your money and you takes your chances. And if you’re one of those who will try to pull one over on the OEM, understand that 1) you’re committing felony-level fraud, 2) the OEMs are able to figure out both hardware and software changes have happened, even if put back to stock before hauling the smoldering mass back to the dealer for the standard “I don’t know what happened, it just started running rough and making a knocking noise” claim.
(all links/emphasis by author)
Source: Speed:Sport:Life » Don’t Panic! The Warranty-Voiding TSB Really Isn’t That Big of a Deal
c'mon people, get a clue!
Don’t Panic! The Warranty-Voiding TSB Really Isn’t That Big of a Deal
By Jim Crider, on July 7th, 2011
So the big news Wednesday was that Ford issued a TSB telling its dealers how to check for aftermarket parts and/or PCM calibrations on 2011+ Mustangs. Every time something like this comes to light (and this is far from the first such bulletin from Ford or, for that matter, other OEMs), the various and sundry interweb fora erupt in dismay, and folks start trotting out the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 and proclaiming “Ford can’t do that!”
Yes, Ford (or any other auto manufacturer) can do that. Magnuson-Moss was never intended to encompass modifications from factory specification. If you choose to modify your under-warranty automobile, you pays your moneys and you takes your chances. Muck with the PCM cal and you can expect the powertrain warranty to be void. I don’t know why people are surprised by this.
Some background: for 18-plus years, I was one of the guys at “the factory” (in fact, I worked in a succession of Herman Miller and Steelcase cubicles) who designed bits and pieces of the cars and trucks you buy and drive. One of our jobs was to look at all the warranty return parts and determine root cause of failure (if possible), so we could fix them. I’ve got time in at all of the US “Big 3” and a supplier who sold to pretty much everyone.
Back in the day, we’d get people trying to warranty the then-brand-new 4.6L 4V Cobra motors with broken piston ring lands or #7 con rod bearing pounded into mulch and the owners would deny, deny, deny, they’d had a blower and/or nitrous on it until we showed them how we knew they were lying (hint: everything attached to a car leaves a witness mark, and the OEMs know what the fasteners look like after the initial installation – and what they look like after someone’s undone/reinstalled them). Even underdrive pulleys were enough to make one of those engines cook when run hard in a hot climate — yeah, you’d get 6 hp, but you’d drop coolant flow from 58 GPM to 36 GPM at peak engine power, just as it needs all the flow it can get. Oops. Oh, and to the guy who called and asked if we could just pull those high-flow injectors and the aluminum flywheel he’d installed on the destroyed engine but forgot to remove before towing the broken car to the dealer, and ship them back to him via UPS? Yeah, not gonna happen.
But the main thing here is very simple: the manufacturer warranties the car as they produced it. Change the car, and the manufacturer is no longer responsible for the configuration of whatever you changed — you are. The Magnuson-Moss Act was not, and is not, intended to cover aftermarket parts that deviate from factory specification. Its intent then and now is to cover things like oil, filters, bulbs — common maintenance items — and preventing the OEM from requiring their captive brand of maintenance part in order to maintain warranty coverage (see §2302(c) for this section of the Act). You can use a Fram or Purolator or Mobil oil filter that’s equivalent to the OEM filter, for example. M-M does not, and has never intended that the OEM can’t void your powertrain warranty if you put a blower on it and pop the motor, or flash an aftermarket cal into the ECM that doesn’t have the OEM cal’s detonation protection strategy, leading to holes torched in piston tops.
Lots of aftermarket hot-rod companies hide behind Magnuson-Moss. They’re wrong. The better aftermarket companies warranty their product. The best warranty the downstream systems on the car from the consequences of using the product, effectively replacing the now-voided OEM warranty. They do it in writing, up front.
I ran into this all the time with the 4.6L 4V crowd, and the PowerStroke crowd. Folks just couldn’t grokk why Ford wouldn’t warranty their blowed-up engines and driveline parts after they’d increased power output by at least 50%, and often 100% or more over the stock value. They’d trot out Magnuson-Moss like it was some kind of magic shield.
Um, no.
Take a look at US Code Title 15, Chapter 50, § 2304(c). That tells you how an OEM can deny a warranty claim or outright void the related warranty, in the event of modification or abuse of the product, damage caused by the consumer, or failure of the consumer to properly maintain the product.
So why do people think it’s the OEM’s fault that their engines, transmissions, etc. cannot reliably handle power outputs well beyond the OEM power/torque rating? There’s this perception (and yes, I’m aware that perception = reality for most folks) that the OEMs (and this goes for pretty much all of them) somehow build a lot of extra power-making capacity into their engines, and “detune them” for [insurance, liability, cost-cutting, fuel-economy, emissions, some combo of the above] reasons, and all one needs to do is, say, put some bigger injectors on it and flash the ECM and voila! You’ve unlocked the hidden potential of the engine The Man doesn’t want you to have.
There’s another reason OEMs don’t sell production vehicles with engines tuned to the bleeding edge of their power capability: reliability. Let’s look at a connecting rod. You’re an OEM. There’s a core set of parts that you are required by law to warranty for as much as 15 years/150K miles (California’s PZEV warranty — and it doesn’t make economic sense to make 2 different specs of engine internals). You have a target power output that your marketing requires. Thus, the connecting rod must be able to safely manage S psi of stress from the combination of cylinder pressure and mechanical loading through N cycles without moving into the nasty part of the S-N fatigue curve. You size the connecting rod and choose its material/manufacturing process accordingly, also keeping in mind the price point marketing requires and the mass targets necessary to meet overall vehicle mass targets that effect emissions/fuel economy testing inertia weight class as well as other performance parameters. Do you see the tap-dance involved in keeping all these — and more — parameters met? The rest of the engine and driveline is specified similarly.
Now some aftermarket guy with a PC and a scan tool “unlocks the hidden power” of the engine and increases output by, say 25%. If you’re a 5.0L Coyote engine, in Boss 302 trim and with the TracKey, that’s upping the power from 444 net bhp at the flywheel to 555ish net bhp at the flywheel, and let’s say it’s at the same RPM to take that part out of the equation. How does that happen? Well, you have to make more torque at the given RPM. That means the amount of force imparted to the crankshaft by the connecting rods increases by that same proportion — in other words, the cylinder pressure increases by that amount. This increases the stress on the connecting rod, also by that same proportion. Result? Increasing the stress reduces the number of cycles that connecting rod can take before it fatigues to the point of failure. Depending on the material and design of the rod, and how close to the “knee” in the S-N curve they were to begin with, this could mean the rods only make it 80K miles, it could also mean the rods only make it 24K miles before you’d expect to see failures.
Who gets blamed when guys with blowers, nitrous, aftermarket tunes, etc., start popping the bottom ends out of their engines? Why, not the aftermarket! It’s Ford’s fault that somehow they didn’t design their engine to produce double its OEM rated output without modification.
Regarding the 2011+ Mustang and the TSB released Wednesday, and knowing what I know about the folks involved in the Coyote engine (there are SEVERAL licensed racers, ranging from SCCA and NASA types to NHRA/IHRA drag racers, involved with that engine and with the car), I’m comfortable saying there’s a reasonable margin baked into the engine — and you can see it in the Boss 302 and TracKey tunes above and beyond the base GT tune. But it’s REALLY easy for the aftermarket to exceed that margin — all it may take is a hot day, a “small” 150hp shot of nitrous, and a partially-clogged fuel filter to make it go boom.
This TSB isn’t really different from other statements issued to dealers on previous performance versions of the Mustang, or other models (PowerStroke diesels, for instance) — to be aware of aftermarket modifications that may have adversely affected the reliability of the system they’re being asked to warranty. A K&N filter element in the stock airbox or the Ford Racing cold-air kit (that’s standard on Boss and GT500 models)? No problem. PowerDyne blower? Problem, even though it’s “just a mod to the air intake”.
Anyway, even though I’m not in that business anymore, it’s frustrating that people who wouldn’t think twice about building the bottom end of their Windsor motor with quality parts to support the 15 psi of boost from the Vortech T-trim they intend to install will, at the same time, bitch about how it’s Ford’s fault they can’t double the HP of their PowerStroke tow vehicle without popping the head gasket or scattering the bottom end. And it sounds like some of those same folks are starting to do the same with Coyotes.
Folks, when you have something under warranty, and you choose to modify it for more performance, don’t expect the OEM to honor the warranty on the modified parts or systems (downstream systems included: if you mod the engine, don’t expect warranty relief on the clutch, transmission, or final drive). As I said at the beginning of the article, you pays your money and you takes your chances. And if you’re one of those who will try to pull one over on the OEM, understand that 1) you’re committing felony-level fraud, 2) the OEMs are able to figure out both hardware and software changes have happened, even if put back to stock before hauling the smoldering mass back to the dealer for the standard “I don’t know what happened, it just started running rough and making a knocking noise” claim.
(all links/emphasis by author)
Source: Speed:Sport:Life » Don’t Panic! The Warranty-Voiding TSB Really Isn’t That Big of a Deal
c'mon people, get a clue!
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I've been following this business on the other forums and I've read that there has been a lund and bama tune that have killed #8.
I also read from one dealership tech that a stock motor also lost #8 and was due to a "spark plug issue" and that was all he could say.
a local tuner's shop car 5.0 also lost #8 and was replaced by ford. I spoke with him briefly about what he thought caused it and he says that they suspect that the knock sensors are not working properly (both stock or tuned) but can't verify that. At the moment, their replacement engine is only running a C&L intake with the restriction piece as they're just going to keep the stock tune.
I was considering either a Lund or Steeda tune but now I'm just going to leave it as is and focus more on suspension. It's plenty fast for daily driving around town anyways and I've never taken it to the drag strip (nor do I have plans to any time soon)
I also read from one dealership tech that a stock motor also lost #8 and was due to a "spark plug issue" and that was all he could say.
a local tuner's shop car 5.0 also lost #8 and was replaced by ford. I spoke with him briefly about what he thought caused it and he says that they suspect that the knock sensors are not working properly (both stock or tuned) but can't verify that. At the moment, their replacement engine is only running a C&L intake with the restriction piece as they're just going to keep the stock tune.
I was considering either a Lund or Steeda tune but now I'm just going to leave it as is and focus more on suspension. It's plenty fast for daily driving around town anyways and I've never taken it to the drag strip (nor do I have plans to any time soon)
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