New e85 car voltage drop to 12v at 4500 rpm

[black03]

Answered the questions. Will the updated top hat make a difference? What version you running?

The updated hat shouldn't make a difference at all EXCEPT if you have the version which was made before the 400/465lph pumps came out. If you have one of the hats that was made before then the basket is too tall and will bottom out the pumps. To verify which hat you have you can measure the basket that the pumps sit in. The version that's compatible with the 400/465 pumps should measure .97" tall. If your basket is taller than that your pumps will without a doubt be pressed against the floor of the tank and starve them of fuel.


Regarding the other questions I asked I have a few more..

Wiring- What color wire at the FPDM did you use to trigger the relays?

Tune- Has your tuner properly set your tune up for a return style fuel system?
Yes, but this is still in progress, but the pumps drop 20 psi at wot .
I'm not sure what still in progress means. Either the calibration has been converted or not. I would speak to your tuner about this and find out for sure if indeed it's been converted or not.

If your tuner hasn't completely finished setting your car up for a return style setup that would definitely affect how the car runs.

Please post pics of the hose routing when you get a chance.

Thanks, Jared

 

[badcobra]

Nice to see the vendor in here supporting their product.

 

[da28fan]

The updated hat shouldn't make a difference at all EXCEPT if you have the version which was made before the 400/465lph pumps came out. If you have one of the hats that was made before then the basket is too tall and will bottom out the pumps. To verify which hat you have you can measure the basket that the pumps sit in. The version that's compatible with the 400/465 pumps should measure .97" tall. If your basket is taller than that your pumps will without a doubt be pressed against the floor of the tank and starve them of fuel.


Regarding the other questions I asked I have a few more..

Wiring- What color wire at the FPDM did you use to trigger the relays?

Tune- Has your tuner properly set your tune up for a return style fuel system?
Yes, but this is still in progress, but the pumps drop 20 psi at wot .
I'm not sure what still in progress means. Either the calibration has been converted or not. I would speak to your tuner about this and find out for sure if indeed it's been converted or not.

If your tuner hasn't completely finished setting your car up for a return style setup that would definitely affect how the car runs.

Please post pics of the hose routing when you get a chance.

Thanks, Jared

I bought the system last summer, originally the 850 RWHP version, with 255lph pumps. Was dropping pressure from 38 all the way down to 13. Put in 465 pumps. I'm guessing they are bottomed out. When first mounted, the top of the hat was like 1/2" above the tank and the pumps bottomed out. Cut some of white plastic hose connectors and now the pumps fit, but likely are too close to the bottom of tank. Dropping tank again and will see how high I can raise the pumps to get the filters off tank bottom. Question is, is it even possible to raise the 465lph pumps enough to get them off tank bottom (by cutting more of the hose connector)? If not, do you have any special pricing for a new fuel hat to accomodate these fuel pumps for those who originally bought the Division X fuel hats last summer?

 

[03Cobranator]

... Im trying to understand why e85 has anything to do with this pressure drop?

 

[da28fan]

... Im trying to understand why e85 has anything to do with this pressure drop?

E85 requires about 30% more fuel. So its really just a capacity question, at least other than a e85-specific fuel filter element.

 

[black03]

I bought the system last summer, originally the 850 RWHP version, with 255lph pumps. Was dropping pressure from 38 all the way down to 13. Put in 465 pumps. I'm guessing they are bottomed out. When first mounted, the top of the hat was like 1/2" above the tank and the pumps bottomed out. Cut some of white plastic hose connectors and now the pumps fit, but likely are too close to the bottom of tank. Dropping tank again and will see how high I can raise the pumps to get the filters off tank bottom. Question is, is it even possible to raise the 465lph pumps enough to get them off tank bottom (by cutting more of the hose connector)? If not, do you have any special pricing for a new fuel hat to accomodate these fuel pumps for those who originally bought the Division X fuel hats last summer?

If the hat won't sit flush on the tank with the gasket installed the pumps are bottomed out. This is either from having an older version of the hat that was designed before the 400/465's came out, they pumps weren't installed to the proper height in the hat or the floor of the tank is bent from being jacked at the center.

As mentioned earlier to verify if you have the newest basket just measure it. It should be .97" tall. If you have one that's taller then that we can get one of the newer shorter baskets for you as well as the hose and clamps which you'll need for the install.

If you have the .97" (shorter) basket but still can't get the proper height measurement because the feed of the pump is bottoming out on the fitting that screws into the underside of the hat you'll need to trim the 2 barbs off of the 465 lph pump just below the 2nd barb leaving no barbs on the pump. This will give you enough room to raise the pump to the correct height.

If all of this checks out and you're still dropping pressure your issues aren't related to the pump height but something else.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks, Jared

 

[Mystic03]

If the hat won't sit flush on the tank with the gasket installed the pumps are bottomed out. This is either from having an older version of the hat that was designed before the 400/465's came out, they pumps weren't installed to the proper height in the hat or the floor of the tank is bent from being jacked at the center.

As mentioned earlier to verify if you have the newest basket just measure it. It should be .97" tall. If you have one that's taller then that we can get one of the newer shorter baskets for you as well as the hose and clamps which you'll need for the install.

If you have the .97" (shorter) basket but still can't get the proper height measurement because the feed of the pump is bottoming out on the fitting that screws into the underside of the hat you'll need to trim the 2 barbs off of the 465 lph pump just below the 2nd barb leaving no barbs on the pump. This will give you enough room to raise the pump to the correct height.

If all of this checks out and you're still dropping pressure your issues aren't related to the pump height but something else.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks, Jared

i had my pumps measured with them installed just under 2" but still was bottoming out. so i just cut the hose and pushed the pump as far down as possible to where it hits the actual bracket then it sat flush with the tank..now my question is how low of fuel should i run without starving the pumps?

 

[da28fan]

i had my pumps measured with them installed just under 2" but still was bottoming out. so i just cut the hose and pushed the pump as far down as possible to where it hits the actual bracket then it sat flush with the tank..now my question is how low of fuel should i run without starving the pumps?

Dropped the tank again the other day. Pushed the 465 walbros right up against the .97" cradle, and like you, cut off the last barb, trimmed the hose, and reinstalled. Guessing I gained another 1/4" or so, so this should take care of it, at least hoping. Guess won't know unless I get on a dyno again, but hope this cured it.

 

[badcobra]

You should be able to datalog this without having to go on a dyno. If you have an Xcal, just download Livelink on your laptop and hook it up to your xcal in the car and make a run and see what the pressure looks like.

 

[Mystic03]

Dropped the tank again the other day. Pushed the 465 walbros right up against the .97" cradle, and like you, cut off the last barb, trimmed the hose, and reinstalled. Guessing I gained another 1/4" or so, so this should take care of it, at least hoping. Guess won't know unless I get on a dyno again, but hope this cured it.

Those pumps are a pain to pull out of thw cradle i just trimed the hose and pushed the pumps till it bottomed out on the cradle seemed to be the only way

 

[black03]

You should be able to datalog this without having to go on a dyno. If you have an Xcal, just download Livelink on your laptop and hook it up to your xcal in the car and make a run and see what the pressure looks like.

Datalogging fuel pressure with SCT software through the FRPS will not properly read/display fuel pressure over 43.5psi with the vacuum line still hooked up to it. It has to be done with the vacuum line off the FRPS but still hooked up to the regulator if you want to see accurate fuel pressure from the FRPS over what the base pressure is.

I prefer going off of a mechanical gauge as that's the most accurate reading you'll get but either way will work.

Jared

 

[kccobra1]

I completed this and I am close to 1/4 off the bottom of the tank, no dents. Same issue, so I did some more testing and found my alternator running at 60 amps at idle and 120+ at 2k rpm. What would cause that kind of amp drain without blowing a fuse!? My car is pretty much your car Jarad minus the 4.0 blower. You seen this before? I am not ruling out the pumps but they only pull 32 amps and no fuses blowing.

 

[nanastymach1]

I'm having the same issues as we speak my car is at kurgan dropping pressure in the high Rpms on higher boost levels....it's a twin turbo 03 cobra lethal 1200 fuel system with the old style hat (400s to a crap and the car kept going lean on just about any boost level after about 3 months of e85) so I bought new turbos for the hell of it precision twin 6262 ball bearing billet wheel turbos and twin 465 pumps...I cut it down to the second notch and a little bit of the rubber and got them back in and hit the dyno last Monday


Car did ok till we got to about 23 psi and we noticed it kept going lean on the top and he added and added fuel up to (as much as 20% ) and still kept going lean so we had to stop there and I left my car at kurgan to avoid driving 16 hours after taking it home to fix it,take it back,etc !

Before the car made 940 hp 795 tq with the hellion twin turbonetic 61 mm turbos on 27 psi and we quit at 23 psi I think it make 888 hp 830+ tq going lean around 5k and up

Any recommendations ? We were going to drop the tank and check for issues was the 1st

 

[da28fan]

Those pumps are a pain to pull out of thw cradle i just trimed the hose and pushed the pumps till it bottomed out on the cradle seemed to be the only way

Agreed, but didn't pull them out. Used a C-clamp to push them down the rest of the way to where the beginning of the bell shape is right up against the cradle now.

 

[da28fan]

I'm having the same issues as we speak my car is at kurgan dropping pressure in the high Rpms on higher boost levels....it's a twin turbo 03 cobra lethal 1200 fuel system with the old style hat (400s to a crap and the car kept going lean on just about any boost level after about 3 months of e85) so I bought new turbos for the hell of it precision twin 6262 ball bearing billet wheel turbos and twin 465 pumps...I cut it down to the second notch and a little bit of the rubber and got them back in and hit the dyno last Monday


Car did ok till we got to about 23 psi and we noticed it kept going lean on the top and he added and added fuel up to (as much as 20% ) and still kept going lean so we had to stop there and I left my car at kurgan to avoid driving 16 hours after taking it home to fix it,take it back,etc !

Before the car made 940 hp 795 tq with the hellion twin turbonetic 61 mm turbos on 27 psi and we quit at 23 psi I think it make 888 hp 830+ tq going lean around 5k and up

Any recommendations ? We were going to drop the tank and check for issues was the 1st

Just some crude math here, and I'd welcome feedback, but when a fuel system is rated at 1200HP, my understanding is that is crank HP on regular fuel. So if you take 1200 and decrease it by 15% or so to go from crank to RWHP, you get to 1020 RWHP. Now if you/we are using E85, research typically shows 30% more fuel, so take 30% off of that and you get 714RWHP. So although I'm no expert, a 1200HP system is nowhere near enough for your setup. I'd even question if twin 465s are enough.

Keep in mind the 405 pumps are rated at 405 with E85, but the 465 is rated at 465 with regular gas. Put E85 thorugh it and now you're talking about 430, so not that much difference. So using the above math, going to twin 465s yields about 6% more. So wouldn't that be 714 x 1.06=757RWHP? Again, others chirp in, but I'm guessing that twin 465s can not provide the fuel you need at 900+ RWHP on E85...

 

[badcobra]

I made 915 uncorrected with twin 340's on e85. No sign of pressure dropping either, meaning there is still more in it. Should have no problems making 1000 with the 465's provided everything else is right. I run a modified stock hat though with dual outs and a return welded on. For some reason, I have a hard time spending $400+ for one of these billet hats.

 

[04SilverSerpent]

I was at 90% inj duty cycle with e85 with triple 340's and 80's....but I wasn't having voltage issues.

 

[Mystic03]

Agreed, but didn't pull them out. Used a C-clamp to push them down the rest of the way to where the beginning of the bell shape is right up against the cradle now.

I just cut the hosr since i couldnt pull the pumps and pushed them down as hard as i could till they bottomed out on the cradle..took it out the other night did a couple quick wot's my fp gauge showed no signs of declining press uptop

 

[black03]

Just some crude math here, and I'd welcome feedback, but when a fuel system is rated at 1200HP, my understanding is that is crank HP on regular fuel. So if you take 1200 and decrease it by 15% or so to go from crank to RWHP, you get to 1020 RWHP. Now if you/we are using E85, research typically shows 30% more fuel, so take 30% off of that and you get 714RWHP. So although I'm no expert, a 1200HP system is nowhere near enough for your setup. I'd even question if twin 465s are enough.

Keep in mind the 405 pumps are rated at 405 with E85, but the 465 is rated at 465 with regular gas. Put E85 thorugh it and now you're talking about 430, so not that much difference. So using the above math, going to twin 465s yields about 6% more. So wouldn't that be 714 x 1.06=757RWHP? Again, others chirp in, but I'm guessing that twin 465s can not provide the fuel you need at 900+ RWHP on E85...

Our systems are rated at the rear wheel on gasoline not at the flywheel. Obviously the system needs to be paired with the proper sized injector to support the Hp they're rated at.

Hope that helps.

Jared

 

[black03]

Just letting you guys know that I took the time today to drop the tank in my 03 to verify measurements for the 465lph pumps. I'm running the newer generation DX hat with the 6 pin connector but with the old fittings on the underside of the hat which were designed before the 465's came out. With that said all I did was trim the 465's below the 2nd barb and then cut the hose so that I could push the pumps all the way into the basket so that the bell portion of the pump sits against the underside of the basket.

With the bell against the underside of the basket the measurements from the underside of the gasket installed on the hat to the bottom of the pre-filter were from 6-6.125". I then measured several different points on the actual tank from the area where the gasket rests when the hat is installed to the bottom of the tank and got measurements ranging from 6.250-6.50".

So regardless of what pump you run (GSS342, Stryker 340, Stealth 340, Walbro 400lph, Walbro 465) or which version hat you have as long as your pumps sit in the basket and measure less then 6.250" from the bottom of the pre-filter to the underside of the gasket you're good to go and the pumps will not be bottomed out. I prefer to keep them at around 6.125" or less but anything less then 6.250" will work.

If you have these measurements and your pumps are still bottoming out your tank was most likely jacked up from the bottom and needs to be popped back down in order to have proper clearance for the pumps to sit in the correct position.

Lastly,
I've had the non E85 compatible pumps (400lph Walbro's) in my car for quite some time. They hold pressure without any issues and support 870rwhp on E85. Everything looked pretty good in there considering my car sits quite a bit. The pre-filters only showed some discoloration to them but nothing that I was concerned about. I also noticed some oxidation forming on the outside of the pump but other than that the 30R10 hose used to mate the pumps to the hat, wiring inside the tank and anodize on the fuel hat looked great.

I'm going to take a few pictures of the hat assembly and the measurements for you guys tomorrow.

Hope that helps.

Jared