MM Maximum Grip Box in a 93 Cobra?

[jrh99]

Has anyone here done it? Would it ever be possible to go back to stock if I wanted? MM told me over the phone that there would be no issue with reverting back to stock after putting coil-overs in, but I didn't ask about the entire kit. I've never had or been in a car with coil-overs, but I've always heard there's no comparison so I think I'd like to see for myself. What would an average time/cost for installation be at a typical shop (I wouldn't dare try all this myself)?
Also, the car I'll be picking up soon has welded Motorsport subframe connectors already. Would there be any issues if I tried taking those out and having the MM's put in? I'm just wondering if there's any issue with removing something after it's been welded into place.

Let me know what you think.

 

[KC/COBRA]

I wanna put a MM max-grip kit on mine also. I'm real curious about any opinion's on this kit. subscribing

 

[stangbear427]

I wouldn't try to cut them out unless you can't verify that they'll work. The SFC requirements for a MM torque arm is a .120" wall thickness at 1"x2", and most of the reputable companies making SFC's that I know of meet that standard. Having installed a full coil over/TA suspension in my GT, I can verify that going back to stock is just a matter of unbolting everything.
That being said, it won't be exactly as is was before. In order to install the TA, you'll need to drill two rather large holes in the differential case to bolt it up. In order to install the panhard bar, you'll need to drill some large holes in the rear subframe. So, you'll leave some holes behind if you return it to stock later. I seem to remember needing to drill some holes for the C/C plates, but it was a long time ago and I'm not positive. LOTS of new holes to drill for the strut tower brace.
The coil overs are a purely bolt on setup that will leave no footprints when they're gone, as is the K-member I believe- it's the only component I didn't get so I can't say from experience. However, before I bought my Cobra I talked to MM quite a bit to be sure I'd be able to re-use this suspension in it, and the guy I talked to had owned a '93 Cobra himself. For reasons I didn't really understand and don't remember, he said that the K-Member could be used in the Cobras, but not the A-arms. I don't pretend to think his explanation made any sense to me, and while I've trusted MM with my soul for years and would like to think this guy would know about our cars having had one himself, I'm not sure I believe he knew what he was talking about.

Ultimately, I highly recommend this suspension, and can only assume that with the K-member it would be even better. Mine used the Hypercoil/Bilstien coil overs, and they ROCK. Indeed, there is no comparison to a coil over suspension. It was a little on the stiff side, but I had no trouble living with it for 15K/mi.+ a year, even with the drag racing rear LCA's. I've read a ton of material claiming the Cobra has softer anti-sway bars than the regular 5.0's, and just as much saying they don't; but if it's true, I'd expect the ride quality to be better without compromising handling much if at all. Granted, the Maximum Grip Box comes with their adjustable rear bar which negates that either way, but also involves drilling more holes in the car for installation, unless you get the weld-in kit which is even more permanent.

 

[KC/COBRA]

Thanks, that's good information to know.

 

[jrh99]

Thanks stangbear that does help. I'm not too sure yet if I want to put tons of extra holes in the car. I may just stick with their Starter Box, plus whatever additional bracing that doesn't require any drilling.
*Decisions*

Does anyone have any ideas as to how the MM Road and Track springs are in regards to ride and stiffness. I'd like to see how they sit too...
I'd probably go with those or the H&R Race setup if I did regular springs.

 

[stangbear427]

I'd like to clarify that the single most important suspension modification you can make (at least from a performance perspective) is a panhard or watts link. It addresses the biggest flaw in the Fox suspension geometry, and anything else you upgrade will just frost the cake.
This is worth thinking very hard about. I don't like the idea of drilling holes in the car either, but I will because I can't stand feeling the rear floating around in turns and launches. If you take two identical stock Cobras and give one the best springs and dampers you can buy- or coil overs- sticky tires, k-member, euro bushings, chassis bracing up the wazoo, rear control arms, bumpsteer correction, etc, and give the other car just a panhard, the panhard car will run the cones faster.
You may want to look for a panhard that doesn't require drilling holes, some watts links (I believe) don't require it. Practically though, the holes the MM piece needs are tucked pretty high up in the rear frame and you'd be hard pressed to notice them if you weren't looking for them if you put it back to stock, especially if you plug them with something. Since the car already has SFC's welded in, I wouldn't lose sleep over these two holes if I were you... just my $.02

 

[jrh99]

I'd like to clarify that the single most important suspension modification you can make (at least from a performance perspective) is a panhard or watts link. It addresses the biggest flaw in the Fox suspension geometry, and anything else you upgrade will just frost the cake.
This is worth thinking very hard about. I don't like the idea of drilling holes in the car either, but I will because I can't stand feeling the rear floating around in turns and launches. If you take two identical stock Cobras and give one the best springs and dampers you can buy- or coil overs- sticky tires, k-member, euro bushings, chassis bracing up the wazoo, rear control arms, bumpsteer correction, etc, and give the other car just a panhard, the panhard car will run the cones faster.
You may want to look for a panhard that doesn't require drilling holes, some watts links (I believe) don't require it. Practically though, the holes the MM piece needs are tucked pretty high up in the rear frame and you'd be hard pressed to notice them if you weren't looking for them if you put it back to stock, especially if you plug them with something. Since the car already has SFC's welded in, I wouldn't lose sleep over these two holes if I were you... just my $.02

Wow, I had no idea that the panhard would be such an essential piece... very good to know. In the case that it does provide that much of an improvement I'm too am the type to typically make exceptions. This is probably a dumb question, but which is better panhard or watts link? Should I stick w/ MM's or do others make some really good units too? Thanks again!

 

[stangbear427]

Indeed. MM has measured over two inches of lateral movement in each direction of the rear end in a mustang with the factory four link layout, and what this does for rear steer and general binding is outrageous. It's the stupidest cost cutting venture I can think of in the Fox, as I really don't see how it would have cost Ford that much more money to do a simple panhard with parallel upper control arms like the Steeda 5link setup.

The watts link is superior from a performance standpoint, but it's really splitting hairs. 99% of drivers are quite simply not good enough to milk anything extra from it, and most of them are harder to route tailpipes through, if they allow it at all. There are other decent units, but none that I feel are as good as the MM one, including Griggs who I typically think is better than MM. That isn't to say that for most people theirs or anyone else's won't be good enough, especially if these are street only cars.

 

[jrh99]

I see. And at $330 it almost seems like a no-brainer. But once the panhard is put on don't most people feel that you're crazy not to also do rear control arms that work with the new setup?

 

[red95gts]

While adding a panhard bar does do wonders for lateral location of the axle, doesn't it introduce more bind into the rear suspension if installed without a 3-link conversion?

I agree on the Ford design - It's just fundamentally flawed. But, I'm sure in 1978, when the Ford engineers were designing the new Fairmont, they weren't real concerned about handling..

 

[stangbear427]

No. It basically removes 50% of the axles possible movements, therefore removing half the opportunity for bind to present itself. The upper control arms will still bind due to their layout, but without the panhard they would be binding exponentially more.

jrh- "crazy" as you've used it there is relative. My fathers '01 GT has the entire stock suspension in place, and he was thinking about upgrading the springs and dampers. I don't blame him, piloting that tank down a back road was downright scary. I talked him into a MM panhard, and now he doesn't want to change anything else. It handles like a different car, every turn is executed with controlled confidence, and he hasn't done anything to compromise his ride quality. His launch would improve with better control arms, but for him it's good enough- it wouldn't be a good investment. For you? Hard to say. Depends on your intentions.

When Maximum Motorsports "finished" their first suspension, they hadn't even developed the torque arm yet. It was just their LCA's with FRPP uppers and a panhard- and in that configuration they placed the third fastest slalom time Motor Trend had ever recorded. So, what is necessary is definitely a matter of perspective and intent.
Every part you change will improve at least one aspect of the handling, and hopefully without compromise if the right parts are used together. However, your panhard will work the same regardless of whether you change the control arms or not. It has only one job to do and doesn't depend on the control arms in any way to get it done. What better control arms will do for you is help control wheelhop caused by deflection of the soft bushings and flimsy stamped steel arms. Spending yet more for arms with good three piece bushings will take another step towards eliminating rear suspension bind, but just a small one. Spending a little more for spherical bearings at one or both ends will do even more, albeit with marginally more NVH. I ran drag lowers with spherical bearings on both ends for years, and honestly, my Tremec TKO made more noise in the cabin- but it's worth mentioning. The only way to completely eliminate the bind is in the next step: either eliminate the uppers entirely with a torque arm, relocate the uppers like the Steeda 5link kit, or back-half the car with a properly designed four link and panhard... most of us aren't stupid enough to do that to our limited production Cobras, I hope. Regardless, you see how we're progressing from a basic bolt on suspension to a more and more hard core setup, all of which affect other aspects of the car. For example, the more deflection you take out of your LCA's whether it be with stronger arms, harder durameter bushings or especially with solid bearings, the more important it is to reinforce the torque boxes, etc, etc. (not that it shouldn't be done anyway)

 

[Big Ben]

Do you know if any of the specific brands that still allow you to run tail pipes?

 

[stangbear427]

MM's will, although the bigger pipe you use the harder it will be to fit. I used 2.5" tails with mine and it took awhile to get it routed so it didn't clunk on anything. Steeda's new one will, but interestingly, I've never seen it sold by itself. I'm sure you can get it without buying the whole 5link, but I haven't seen it and haven't really looked. Griggs will, but it's expensive and from looking at it, IMO it's the worst designed one. The MM bar is the only one that I think doesn't have to be welded in to be solid (which isn't the same as saying the others have to be welded!). I only know of those three specifically, but I know there are more out there.

 

[tunedin302]

I'd like to clarify that the single most important suspension modification you can make (at least from a performance perspective) is a panhard or watts link.

I agree with this statement 100%. The single best performance mod I have ever done to my GT is a MM PHB. On the rear of my car I went with the following:

FMS M-5500 Upper control Arms M-5500
MM LCA 1.3 Lower Control Arms MMRLCA-1.3
MM Panhard Bar – Polished Rod MMPBA2
Bilstein HD shocks – Machined for Coilover BE5-6418-H0
Hypercoil Springs #175 HYP17511225
MM Coilover Kit COP-3

The difference in the ride was amazing and the install was not difficult, just time consuming. The most important part of installing the PHB is to ensure your measurements and placement of the chasis brace is correct. I measured about 5 different times and then drilled. Also, while I am very happy with the improved ride quality of the coilovers, I will likely increase my spring rate for some better handling.

Lastly, as to exhaust, keep an eye out for Bassani's release of the 93 Cobra cat-back that is made for use WITH the MM PHB!! The kit will hopefully be released this year.

Here's some quick shots of my finished product:

 

[stangbear427]

I hope you know, that setup is all way too pretty to be allowed out in public.

 

[jrh99]

I hope you know, that setup is all way too pretty to be allowed out in public.

I'll second that. MM does make one hell of a sexy product.

 

[jrh99]

I think for now I'm going to do as much to this car as I can that will bolt up to the stock holes. I need time to think about whether or not I want to take this limited edition (mint) 93 Cobra to the next level.
With that being said what kind of performance improvements can be had if I follow that route? The Starter Box will at least get rid of the 4x4 look that the stock suspension has. Besides that is there really much of anything to bother replacing?

Plus, does anyone have an opinion on the MM Road & Track springs?

 

[tunedin302]

If you don't want to drill into the car then I would just go with some bilsteins all around, poly end-links up front, MM LCAs in the rear, FMS upper control arms, replace the rubber bushings in the rear housing, your choice of coil spring (Eibach or Hypercoil IMO) some MM camber/caster plates, and a bump steer kit. Do that and if you still want even more performance then consider the PHB.

It really depends on what you want from the car. I drive my GT pretty hard at times and wanted something more serious. When I drive my Cobra I am more in sunday cruise mode so I don't need all the MM products for it. I left it completely stock and I am very happy with the handling for my use.

 

[stangbear427]

Since the car already has SFC's welded in, I wouldn't lose any sleep over a few more holes myself. It's not like you're talking about gutting the interior and putting a cage in it.

 

[Big Ben]

Wow that is one trick setup!!! Gonna keep my out for the Bassani. I am close with the Steeda folks gonna see what I can get from them, maybe a donation for a build up story....