MM&FF set on ruining 1331 mile Teal Cobra
- Thread starter cobra186
- Start date
Come on, fellas. When was the last time a magazine totally butchered a vehicle beyond recognition? Aren't we jumping to conclusions? Remember the CODE BLUE project car MM&FF magazine improved back in 92 or 93? It's not like they totally ruined that car with aftermarket ground effects or with a suspension that rides like a log wagon. No, not at all. They didn't paint over the original blue/titanium paint scheme. They didn't lower it. They didn't stick on aftermarket wheels. No, every car MM&FF touches is an absolute gold mine.
A 1331 mile Cobra is already a gold mine. There are hundreds of excellent examples none the worse for wear that have already been driven and raced with more acceptable (mod friendly) mileage on them for MM&FF to bless with their Midas touch.
The big benefit from this article on this particular car is that this car is now going to be documented better than most modded Cobra's out there. The mods will be in print and when the car is sold to Johnny A. Public it will be worth as much as a gracefully modded 93 Cobra if not more because of it's reputation of being a magazine car and a low mile 93 Cobra. Just look at what history has done with some of the older magazine cars from the 60's. It may take 20 years for it to come around like that, but it will. A lot of people will see the car in 15 years at a carshow and go "Oh, wow!! There's that Teal 93 Cobra I read about in MM&ff back in 06-07."
stangbear427 said:
It does to me. Seriously which do you think would bring more money if both are in equivalent shape. A numbers matching car or one that is not.
We are talking about collectors now. A collector is only going to buy one that has a matching #'s engine.
So... you don't think anyone but a "collector" would be interested in a bone stock 1331 mile Cobra? Interesting.
I think it's important to clarify "collector", since WE aren't all the same. Some sip Krytal... some Beringer. Some only sip beer. To let the the richest person in the group speak for everyone even when they are the extreme minority is the most ignorant view of this hobby- and I've said till I'm blue that I'm not trying to argue the dollars and cents of this situation. Purchase price is not the only measure of value here, and it's only an unstable indicator of value at best. Browsing through just the cars we have tabs on in the registry, almost none of them have under 5000 miles. Most, by far, have over 50,000- many have well over. Sure, it may not be worth as much as it's 5,000 mile matching# twin, but it might. And how about a 10,000 mile one? It would be worth more to me- a good chunk more. There is only a finite number of '93 Cobras, what percentage of them- relatively speaking- have under 10,000 bone stock miles? Under 5,000? A car doesn't have to be a Barrett Jackson specimen to still be a collector, far more aren't than are. Saying it isn't a collector worthy car because the numbers don't match is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's assinine, and that elitist perspective of the market fails to see that there are hundreds of levels between the top and the bottom, and that's where most of the people who make this market function are living.
I think it's important to clarify "collector", since WE aren't all the same. Some sip Krytal... some Beringer. Some only sip beer. To let the the richest person in the group speak for everyone even when they are the extreme minority is the most ignorant view of this hobby- and I've said till I'm blue that I'm not trying to argue the dollars and cents of this situation. Purchase price is not the only measure of value here, and it's only an unstable indicator of value at best. Browsing through just the cars we have tabs on in the registry, almost none of them have under 5000 miles. Most, by far, have over 50,000- many have well over. Sure, it may not be worth as much as it's 5,000 mile matching# twin, but it might. And how about a 10,000 mile one? It would be worth more to me- a good chunk more. There is only a finite number of '93 Cobras, what percentage of them- relatively speaking- have under 10,000 bone stock miles? Under 5,000? A car doesn't have to be a Barrett Jackson specimen to still be a collector, far more aren't than are. Saying it isn't a collector worthy car because the numbers don't match is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's assinine, and that elitist perspective of the market fails to see that there are hundreds of levels between the top and the bottom, and that's where most of the people who make this market function are living.
stangbear427 said:
Value (dollars and cents) is what seems to be the only way people look and hope what will improve on these cars and old cars as well. Look at the price difference between any old muscle car that has the original engine or not.
To me, mileage is more important to the engine not the body. What makes the car here so desirable for some people? Yeah its a 1331 mile car but this figure only applies to the body since the engine is removed. Mileage is irrevelant on a body as compared to the engine. IMO, mileage is irrevelant on a body. Doesn't matter if it has 1000 miles or a 100k miles. So what if the odometer reads 2k miles or less, it doesn't have an engine in it that is revelent to the mileage. I would be willing to bet that this car would never be 'worth' the same money as a fox GT with the original block. Hell, my car is around 184k miles now. Would I trade my body for this low mile one. No? There is absolutely no reason to.
My opinion doesn't matter though. I am not a rich collector by any means. I don't even consider myself a collector. I am just a fan of fox body mustangs and I am going to drive my cars, modify them, and enjoy them as they were intended to be.
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Having an engine with zero miles is far easier to aquire than than a Cobra body with 1331. First of all, They are still being made and are relatively cheap. As I said [much] earlier, every Cobra specific engine component is also easy to get. Getting this car for $5K, I could have a never fired 100% Cobra specific engine in it which for the most part no one would know wasn't born there for less than $10K total investment- which is what I paid for mine with 100,000 miles on it. Which one would I rather have? If both options had been available I wouldn't have even looked at my car, not even if I could have gotten it for the $5K the editor paid for this one. But then, I was raised in a body shop (literally- my bedroom was upstairs). You say mileage means nothing on a body... I can't fathom even thinking that. In the world I was brought up in that's heresy. You may think your 184,000 mile body is as good as the one on this 1331 mile car, but I can say with authority- I promise you it isn't even close. Not if is was stored in a climate controlled garage every second it wasn't driving down the road... and it wasn't.
LEE93COBRA said:
My oppinion is the opposite of yours. I think miles are more important on the body. Engines are very easily and cheaply rebuilt back to new. body's are very expensive and time consuming to restore. I'd trade my car in a heartbeat for that low mileage one. With 1300 miles on it it's not going to have the road grime, scrapes, scuffs, chips, and everyother thing that comes from a 86k mile car. I consider my car to be super clean, but compared with say my '03 cobra with 4k on it.... It's not even close. To have a '93 as clean on the bottom side as my '03 would be awesome. You won't get that with a 50k mile or higher car, period. If you think there's no difference, you've never seen a low mile car. In 30 minutes I could make my '03 look like it rolled off the assembly line, and it has 4,000 miles on it, not 1,300. You'd be insane if you didn't think a 1300 mile roller wasn't better than any other higher mile car.
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19COBRA93 said:
Interesting thought.
A lot depends on how well it is taken care of. I bought my car with 80k miles on it by the original whom had taken care of it. Since buying it, I had the car painted due to some very light fender work that needed to be done. Nothing was wrong with the paint but I was afraid the paint might not match. I have also had a few areas in the engine compartment resprayed. The front seats have been recovered once and the carpet gets replaced every 2 years. Other than a light coat of oil from a prior oil pan leak, My car is very clean underneath. Does my car have some paint chips on the front end, sure it does. that comes with driving. I figure the car will get painted all over again next year juct because I don't belive in 'touching up areas'.
its funny. My 93 will clean up much better all over than our 41k 2001 cobra vert
Another thought.............. A 60's or early 70's Muscle car is first judged on "matching numbers" if two or more cars are side-by-side in "like condition" and of equal, or close to equal price. The matching number car brings the best money. The body is important, but realistically, what car won't need to be painted at least once by the time it reaches an age where it is steadilty going up in value at 20-25+ years old? You can take a "nice original paint" car and put it against a restored/repainted car, yes the nice original paint is great, correct orange peel, etc., but the restored/repainted car is also of close value because of its eye candy appeal. The matching or non-matching numbers between these two cars will decide their value and possibly a sale, or no sale. Car bodies can be nice original paint (one time only) or be restored with new paint many times over, original matching numbers is one time only and totes a greater $$$ value in the collector world from what I have followed over the past 20-30 years. People seem to crave matching numbers even if the car is a "pig" and needs total restoration. It seems that there is a thought process that assumes a car (performance car in this case) will need paint, once twice, maybe more, over its life, and with that repaint any body dings or damage/rust repaired, however a performance car that still has its original performance engine and drivetrain that has not been broken during years of use and/or abuse, that is priceless to many.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^Long story short, it seems that original drivetrain far outweighs other orignal items be it body, interior, etc. in the collector world from past history when looked at from a $$$ value.
R
^^^^^^^^^^^^^Long story short, it seems that original drivetrain far outweighs other orignal items be it body, interior, etc. in the collector world from past history when looked at from a $$$ value.
R
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For some reason I have a problem with repainted cars. If properly taken care of, original paint will last decades and still look new (refering to clearcoat paint).
Simply having a car painted is just a cover up for poor maintanence, or accident, but having it painted as nice or better than OEM, is a restoration IMO, and having a car restored is the only thing that will place it even close to the cleanliness of a 1300 mile original. I personally would much rather have a 1300 mile original unrestored body than a restored numbers matching car.
Simply having a car painted is just a cover up for poor maintanence, or accident, but having it painted as nice or better than OEM, is a restoration IMO, and having a car restored is the only thing that will place it even close to the cleanliness of a 1300 mile original. I personally would much rather have a 1300 mile original unrestored body than a restored numbers matching car.
19COBRA93 said:
I agree, and paint work "can" cover up issues, many of which can come back to haunt a future owner. I would guess that most likely this 1300 mile car will not stay at 1300 miles once it has a drivetrain. Then the deterioration begins. So at some point, it will also need some paint work most likely, that is part of "use", and it still will not have an original matching number drivetrain.
R
I do want to say that I agree with everyone who said this roller was a great deal, it was! But to bring this car up to its maximum $$$ value for now and for the future, buying a new crate motor is not the only consideration. A complete "correct original" exhaust (if it is missing) would have to be installed, everything under the hood would have to look like the car just rolled off the assy. line, including correct emissions equipment, etc. Bringing this 1300 mile body back to that condition with non-matching engine block and trans. case would be the way to make it "close" to the value of a matching drivetrain 93 Cobra with "like miles" and "like condition". If the car was just going to be modded, then why not let MM&FF do it?
R
R
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19COBRA93 said:
I have never had a problem with repainted cars as long as they are done correctly and usually you can tell. I would rather spend 10k on a car that has a nice repaint over car that has the original paint which more than likely has changed shades through the years.
But this is just me and my preferences. I could never bring myself to buy an extremely low mile car because I am a "driver" guy and I would be afraid the engine is shot to hell (along with other drivetrain items) because of not being driven. It seems such a waste to watch any cool car sit around and collect dust.
I dont know why everyone makes a big deal out the missing "original engine" I t wouldnt cost that mouch to put it back . It is a typical mustang 5.0 and brakets and there are plenty of Cobra GT 40 heads, cams, and intakes on ebay, also you can still buy the trans new. And about it being "matching" or "original" How many of you actually verified the engine /trans VIN number stamping on your cobra before you bought it? probably very few if any. You might want to check yours , cause you really never know whats been done, unless you bought it new. I also dont think exhaust will hurt these cars either, Unless it is a musem piece or supposed to be 100% orig. show car. Because Half of the cobras got a new exhaust system in the first week if not on the way home frome the dealer.
cobr96 said:
I would guess that very few would check the matching numbers on a car that is just now getting toward its original MSRP for nice examples, like the 1993+ Cobra's. But............the guys who are buying collector cars that are many, many times their original cost (MSRP) most likely looked to verify that all numbers match. That is the big difference, the collectabilty of the specific car and its age. These Cobra's are not at a point in time yet that matching numbers are extemely important to value, but they are only getting older day by day, year by year. At some point their demand will steadily increase as will their value. That is the time when what we are dismissing as "not important" now will be very important then. Time marches on.
The exhaust is also a great thing to discuss. I don't see any "top dollar" collector cars from the 60's and early 70's with non-factory type exhaust, why because it depreciates the car from top $$$. In fact headers were not even an option on many cars from that era, but instead only cast iron exhaust manifolds. This type of manifold was like blowing all of the exhaust into a "log" as it leaves the engine, definitly not a performance item like a tubed header. You would think that cast iron exhaust manifolds would be worthless today, as they were when these muscle cars were new? But.............no, headers that have been installed after the fact on these muscle cars are quickly thrown in the trash today and original cast iron manifolds are "gold". If you can find "correct manifolds" with the correct dates, beyond gold. Many of these SVT Cobras have far fewer build numbers than many of the "muscle cars" from the 60's. They (many SVT Cobras) were rare at the end of their production year, can you imagaine how rare they will be 15-20 years? And then nice original, low mile examples? Many muscle cars are only rare now because of their age and the amount that have been destroyed. They were plentiful, and seen often in their day. Very few, if any of the top $$$ muscle cars at shows are "museum peices", many are driven to shows, however, it seems that at some point in life they became vauable and desired for "correctness", and that is what became in demand to the guys will to spend the extra money on a specific car.
Every item that is modded on a car can be discussed and compared in a "then vs now", top $$$ vs. not top $$$. The top $$$ cars match and are correct, the others don't. History is already proving this to be true. Again, time marches on!
BTW-Reproduction/correct looking smog parts for many of the muscle cars can easily cost $1200-$1500 now, just think, most people pulled that stuff off and threw in in the trash as soon as they got home!?
R
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My Boss 302 Cougar had long tubes on it when I got it and they were worthless. Cool back in the day, but now only took away from the cars' value. Luckily it still had the smog, and rev limiter. All the typical stuff that people threw in the trash long ago is now what's hard to find. Like airbox silencers on fox's, I'll bet they'll be a hard part to find years down the road. Imagine the value of an OEM console with a fully functional ash tray door. It's a rare thing now, and they're still failing daily.
Another thing to consider when discussing the "value" of classic muscle cars vs. the Fox is the likelyhood that a Fox will ever be viewed as they are. For example, one of the biggest reasons most of these old muscle cars are so desired is the very same reason there are so few of them. The General Lee comes to mind. Ask yourself, how many hundreds of '68 Chargers were destroyed making the Dukes TV shows, and compounding the issue, how much smaller would the Chargers cult following be today without the TV drawing so much attention to it, making it look so cool? The car was a legend in it's own time, the Fox isn't. The same could be said for the 60's Mustangs. At least the car in Bullet only brought exposure to a car that was cool off the showroom floor, but [the remake of] Gone in 60 Seconds has turned the '67-'68 Mustang market rabid to find cars to slice up and turn into Eleanors, 40 years after the cars hayday. I'm not saying nobody will ever try to use a Fox for a hero car or that when they do it won't start a revolution in the Fox market much the same way GI60 did for the '67 Shelby, but I kindof doubt it. What worries me is that if it does, at the rate we're burning up Fox cars like the dime-a-dozen cars they are, how many will be around to support the craze when and if it happens? You are more likely to find an unmolested classic muscle car than you are a Fox, and that's today. When the Fox is as old as the classic muscle is today, how many will be left then? I'm not sure what I'm getting at, or if I just argued on both sides of the fence, but I think ultimately I'm arguing the point that in the long run I don't think non-matching numbers is going to ruin all collectors value for any clean, stock example of a '93 Cobra... or even a GT for that matter. If anything, I think finding a good clean stock one will be harder in 25 years than finding a good clean stock 71 Mach1 is today. What's that going to do for value and demand?
LOL- especially since many of our Foxs did come with headers, not manifolds :lol:
LOL- especially since many of our Foxs did come with headers, not manifolds :lol:
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