Looking for advice on larger than ID1000 injectors

[MalcolmV8]

My ID1000s are pegging at 100% duty cycle in 3rd gear around 5500 RPM. I removed the 4lb lower for now and they're hitting around 89% duty cycle in 4th around 6000 RPM. Looking at my options and I see ID has ID1300, 1700 and 2000s. Before I blindly pick one any suggestions based on how much I'm running out of injector? Also I'm wondering about drivability and idle quality with the larger injectors as well as any limitations or issues using the larger injector data in my 03 Cobra ECU. Any high/low impedance issues to note?

Thanks

 

[GodStang]

Holy crap how much power you making? My 80s were good to over 800rwhp on E85.

 

[MalcolmV8]

I'm not sure. Just street tuning at this point, it hasn't been on a dyno. Need to get this fueling sorted out before I strap it down and dial in the timing.

 

[ViperRed91GT]

What's your fuel pressure set to? AFR? What pump are you running? While it says "injector duty cycle", that just means how long the injector is open. Other variables come into play.

What's your fuel setup and what's your engine setup?

 

[Nightmare302]

If you have enough pump add base pressure. If not, the 1300 and 1700's are the stainless E85 injectors the 2000 is just larger 1000. They will tune out just fine though some people say the 2000's can run a touch rich at idle with the pulse widths it's capable of.

 

[Weather Man]

I went with the DW1500. Stainless and significant cost saving over the ID1700.

 

[MalcolmV8]

What's your fuel pressure set to? AFR? What pump are you running? While it says "injector duty cycle", that just means how long the injector is open. Other variables come into play.

What's your fuel setup and what's your engine setup?

39 PSI base pressure. Using dual 465 pumps. AFR was 12.0 but I'd like to drop that to 11.0 once I have more injector. Yes I know I could turn base pressure up to 60 PSI and try and get more out of the ID1000s but with the 4lb lower I'm at 30 PSI of boost (at 5500 RPM and it was climbing) so that would put my fuel pressure up to at least 90 PSI WOT at 5500 rpm, probably more as the RPMs wrap up more. I've heard relief valves on the pumps are around 100 PSI so I'd be approaching that limit.
Car is on E85.
Pressure drop across injectors holds the 39 PSI across the sweep so fuel pump does not appear to be running out yet.

If you have enough pump add base pressure. If not, the 1300 and 1700's are the stainless E85 injectors the 2000 is just larger 1000. They will tune out just fine though some people say the 2000's can run a touch rich at idle with the pulse widths it's capable of.

Read comment above why I have concerns about bumping base fuel pressure. Also not sure how much that would help. Going from 39 PSI to 60 PSI is 1.538 square root is 1.2403 so my 1000 CC injectors would essentially become 1240 CC at 60 PSI. I'm not sure if that's going to be enough to hold them at 80% or less duty cycle at the top of 4th at 7k RPM with the 4lb lower on.

 

[MalcolmV8]

I went with the DW1500. Stainless and significant cost saving over the ID1700.

These here?
http://www.deatschwerks.com/product...cobra-2003-04/1500cc-fuel-injectors-23-detail

What price where you able to get them for? Also do you do tuning by any chance? I'm wondering what kind of injector data they come with. One of the perks of ID injectors is the data they supply for hi and low slopes, break point and battery offset etc. is spot on. The car is a dream to tune with ID injectors because you get exactly what you command in the tune. SD injectors for example are painful to tune with, it's all over the place.

 

[TRBO VNM]

Holy shat, 30#? Awesome man. I personally haven't messed with anything more than the 1000's, but others haver reported back similar results in regards to tuning the other model ID's.

 

[MalcolmV8]

Holy shat, 30#? Awesome man. I personally haven't messed with anything more than the 1000's, but others haver reported back similar results in regards to tuning the other model ID's.

Yeah this was at only 5500 RPM. As you know the boost builds with RPMs on the bigger Whipple. So it'll probably go higher once I wrap it up more.

I recall reading issues at one time with the ID2000s but that was a long time ago and I don't recall exactly what the issue was or if it still applies today. I also see one person above mentions idle issues and richness with the 2000s. Wouldn't mind hearing more feedback on that. See if that was on race gas or E85 etc.

 

[98 Saleen Cobra]

I wouldn't recommend the ID2k's.. We had issues with them on one of the race cars.. I would look into the 1300's.. BUT even then I'll bet you are close to maxing.. Maybe the 1700's, but I don't think that mapping has come out for the Cobra's yet? I could be wrong.

FWIW:

AED did a 04 Cobra making 1000rwhp with ID1000's.. BUT the car is running a external Weldon big single pump and base pressure was bumped up.. This was on 19psi though and 19* of timing.. NOT 30psi.. You need a big injector and IMO a stand alone ecu.

For reference:
http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...e1530-s-1000HP-Whipple-Terminator-on-the-dyno

 

[Nightmare302]

At your power level I would strongly suggest a stand alone, much safer. The 1300's would be enough, he could also increase base if they aren't. But they should support well into the 1k on corn.

 

[03Steve]

What is the observed peak unscaled MAF airflow in lb/min or kg/hr? Quantify the airflow and you can quantify the fueling requirements.

 

[Weather Man]

These here?
http://www.deatschwerks.com/product...cobra-2003-04/1500cc-fuel-injectors-23-detail

What price where you able to get them for? Also do you do tuning by any chance? I'm wondering what kind of injector data they come with. One of the perks of ID injectors is the data they supply for hi and low slopes, break point and battery offset etc. is spot on. The car is a dream to tune with ID injectors because you get exactly what you command in the tune. SD injectors for example are painful to tune with, it's all over the place.

Can't remember the exact price, I just remember they were $3-400 cheaper than the ID1700. DB Performance is doing the build and tune, they have used them before and have no issues tuning them.

I am the first customer they have had who is having them install your engine keep alive box. With 3 pumps in my build, decided it was time to get that thing on the car.

 

[MalcolmV8]

What is the observed peak unscaled MAF airflow in lb/min or kg/hr? Quantify the airflow and you can quantify the fueling requirements.

OK cool. I will look at the logs and see what it had. I don't think the MAF was properly dialed in at the time. We were tuning the car and ran into these limitations but it should be in the ball park.

 

[03Steve]

AD counts, MAF type, pipe size should be sufficient for ballpark calculations

 

[MalcolmV8]

AD counts, MAF type, pipe size should be sufficient for ballpark calculations

OK it was hard to find those and the matching tune that goes along with a datalog as it's changed so much since these tests about 3 months ago.
I did find one log where I was progressively laying into the gas pedal due to traction and reached WOT at 6550 in 3rd. At that point which is right were the injectors pegged at 100% duty cycle

6550 RPM
969 counts
07-10 GT500 slot sensor
5.1" housing
58 #/min (believe I found the correct tune that matches that log and it shows unscaled)

I'm pretty sure that was with the 4lb lower. That log went to 979 counts BTW.

I'll keep looking through the old logs and see if I find anything better.

 

[03Steve]

Gotcha. 979 counts with a Ford slot meter in a 5.1" housing. No MAFia, correct?

BTW - we exceeded 100% with the injector duty PID in LiveLink 6.x regularly with AMZ2. Whipple 4.0, ID1000s. I don't have a lot of faith in the accuracy of that PID.

 

[MalcolmV8]

Gotcha. 979 counts with a Ford slot meter in a 5.1" housing. No MAFia, correct?

BTW - we exceeded 100% with the injector duty PID in LiveLink 6.x regularly with AMZ2. Whipple 4.0, ID1000s. I don't have a lot of faith in the accuracy of that PID.

Correct no MAFia. Wish I could find a 4th gear pull with the 4lb lower to see max counts. I don't think it was much higher but would like to verify.
Using Live link Gen 2. If PID is wrong what should I be looking for? I don't want to ignore potential issue and hurt motor.

 

[03Steve]

Alright, at 979 counts with that meter and 5.1" tube, you are looking at roughly 2750 kg/hr of air, or 101 lb/min unscaled. That is 6062 lb/hr of airflow.

With E85 and let's say a .78 lambda, that is an air fuel ratio of 7.7:1. Ethanol scale, not gasoline. 6062 lb/hr air with respect to a 7.7:1 air fuel ratio is 787 lb/hr fuel required from the pumps and injectors. Divide by 8 injectors, and you get 98 lb/hr required fuel from each injector to hit the target lambda. That's at 100% duty cycle, which is roughly the size of the ID1000s at 39.15psi base pressure.