Liquid Cooled Kenne Bell Lines through the Engine Coolant System

[Van@RevanRacing]

There was a thread earlier where this kit was discussed. I just got it up on the website with pictures. It's actually pretty easy and straight forward.

The pics are off of the 230 MPH Super Snake.

Link to the website and product. http://www.revanracing.com/products/revan-racing-kb-liquid-cooled-lines-engine-coolant.html

 

[Sonic 03 Cobra]

Couple pics on my recent install. Took a couple hours. Easy. I had to drain coolant anyways, just make sure you don't get any shavings inside the coolant passages.

Pull out the pressed in nipples.

Drill and tap with 1/8 npt

Needs some heat to get over the nipple on the degas bottle, but once it's on it is not coming back off, at least on the C&R tanks

 

[04whitesvtlight]

Is there any difference from running it off the engine coolant rather than the intercooler system. Intercooler seems like it stays quite a bit cooler with my heat exchanger and fans.

 

[SID297]

Is there any difference from running it off the engine coolant rather than the intercooler system. Intercooler seems like it stays quite a bit cooler with my heat exchanger and fans.

You're not putting the blower heat in to the intercooler fluid, which makes it more efficient.

 

[Papaw]

Engine coolant temp is also more consistent than IC temp which can go up or down dramatically based on conditions.

 

[HillbillyHotRod]

Isn"t that just a oveflow reservoir and does not actually circulate thru the radiator?

 

[jazz]

I wonder how much it will help the iat2s... mine Are at 170-190 at wot:/
Prolly will need ice tank or killer chiller at this point...

 

[Sonic 03 Cobra]

Isn"t that just a oveflow reservoir and does not actually circulate thru the radiator?

Flow goes from the towers into the reservoir.

 

[deepblue13]

Sorry to revive and old thread but is the tap size an 1/8 NPT or 5/8 NPT listed on Van's site?

 

[Willie]

So..... KB's design engineers feel that circulating 180+ degree or hotter coolant fluid to the blower is more efficient than 125 degree or cooler IC fluid? My IC fluid digital temp gauges can back up this temperature. On the hottest days in stop and go traffic, my IC fluid temps top out at 125 degrees. In cooler weather, it is 100 degrees or less, whereas engine coolant temps remain above 170....

So what am I missing?

 

[merkyworks]

Using the IC fluid to cool off the SC will have the byproduct of increasing the temperature of the IC fluid. So your 125* IC fluid will now become higher, let's say 140* for example. Now you can't add as much timing cause your not cooling the air charge as much which also means you aren't making as much HP.

So while running the hotter engine coolant doesn't seem as good an option, it actually is the best.

 

[deepblue13]

I can't run my through intercooler lines anyway...I run ice quite a bit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Catmonkey]

It would seem to me coolant coming out of the radiator would be better than circulated coolant coming out of the engine. May not look as neat with the AN fittings coming out the cooling towers. I'm not sure I'd want another heat source on my intercooler system.

 

[rotor_powerd]

So..... KB's design engineers feel that circulating 180+ degree or hotter coolant fluid to the blower is more efficient than 125 degree or cooler IC fluid? My IC fluid digital temp gauges can back up this temperature. On the hottest days in stop and go traffic, my IC fluid temps top out at 125 degrees. In cooler weather, it is 100 degrees or less, whereas engine coolant temps remain above 170....

So what am I missing?

You don't want to put any more heat into your intercooler than you need to. Engine coolant is much more consistent

 

[Robert M]

While flushing my engine and S/C cooling systems recently, I did multiple drain the systems, blow the systems out, refill the systems and run to operating temp, burp and repeat, just to be sure the systems were fully flushed and new fluid was in the systems (or as much as possible).

After reading this thread a few months ago I decided that "while doing the complete flush and refills" and running the systems up to operating temp. would be a Great time to verify what amount of fluid flow I had at the small hose on the top of the degas tank. After multiple times of allowing the engine cooling system to stabilize/degas and getting the fluid level to the correct oem recommended cool level when cold and high level when hot, I did not experience much if any coolant flow at that small degas hose. I placed the hose end in a clear jug multiple times and found very little coolant. When I put clean water in that same jug, there was a small amount of air/gas that came out of the end of that hose, but that was it. To cool that LC blower, there should be a steady stream of coolant flowing through and carrying heat away.

Since I have a brand new 3.6LC that is for a future install on my car, I am def. interested in cooling options for this blower, but I also know that if there is minimal fluid flow through the LC blower, than basically it is not gaining anything beyond what a non-LC blower experiences, air cooled inlet with the fresh air flow coming in, and hot front where the air is compressed and pushed out. That is the whole reason for the LC system, to stabilize the temp across the blower case, air cooled at the back (inlet) and liquid cooled at the front (outlet).

When I get a chance, maybe this week, I plan on calling KB (Mike or Dave)and see what their thoughts are on cooling the LC blower, since they designed and tested the LC system originally. I know that they use the I/C cooling system in their instructions, but do they (as the manufacturer) suggest the engine cooling system as an option? <<<Maybe they do, and that is what I want to find out................and then pro's and con's of using the two different cooling system choices for the LC blower.


R

 

[Bad Company]

The LC system is strictly there to cool the front of the case and front bearing housing of the SC and shouldn't be looked at as a method to reduce IAT2s. When you cool the SC with ice water from a trunk tank for the intercooler system, the case actually contracts in the front from this cooling method. On a hot summer day you now have 95+*F ambient air cooling the rear bearing housing of the SC and 35*F water cooling the front bearing housing. This 60+*F temperature differential in cooling methods causes the front bearing housing to contract too much, while the rear bearing housing is expending. The difference causes the rotors to make contact with each other at the front of the case, due to the differences of a few thousands of an inch in the centerline of the bearings housings from uneven expansion and contraction of the two ends of the SC case and bearing housings.

At high boost levels the SC front bearing housing will see heat from the air exiting the SC. This can be as high as 350*-400*F depending on the boost and ambient temperature of the air entering the SC. These high temperatures allows a engine coolant based LC system with 170* F coolant entering the SC the ability to cool the front case to control expansion of the case and front bearing housing. It isn't the best method, but it works better than nothing.


The best method to cool the SC front bearing housing and case is with ambient temperature coolant, which is what your stock intercooler system is using. This matches the rear bearing housing and SC case being cooled by the ambient air entering the SC at the rear.

This leaves you with little options if you decide to run a trunk tank with ice water. The next best option is to fabricate a separate cooling system with its own pump, HE and small tank for the LC system of the SC where the HE uses ambient air to cool the liquid in the system. Doing this allows you to run ice water in a trunk tank for the SC intercooler system while retaining ambient air temperatures to cool the front case and bearing housing of the SC. By cooling in these methods you remove as much heat as possible without having to worry about a big temperature differential causing the SC case and bearing housings to expand or contract in an uneven manner that will cause rotor contact . With the trunk tank having it own pump, you can use the stock IC pump and IC tank to move the coolant of a separate SC LC system. You'll need install a small HE and plumb it to the the tank and SC coolant lines. This method keeps the expansion and contraction of the case and bearing housings even as possible, while removing as much heat as possible

 

[Robert M]

The LC system is strictly there to cool the front of the case and front bearing housing of the SC and shouldn't be looked at as a method to reduce IAT2s. When you cool the SC with ice water from a trunk tank for the intercooler system, the case actually contracts in the front from this cooling method. On a hot summer day you now have 95+*F ambient air cooling the rear bearing housing of the SC and 35*F water cooling the front bearing housing. This 60+*F temperature differential in cooling methods causes the front bearing housing to contract too much, while the rear bearing housing is expending. The difference causes the rotors to make contact with each other at the front of the case, due to the differences of a few thousands of an inch in the centerline of the bearings housings from uneven expansion and contraction of the two ends of the SC case and bearing housings.

At high boost levels the SC front bearing housing will see heat from the air exiting the SC. This can be as high as 350*-400*F depending on the boost and ambient temperature of the air entering the SC. These high temperatures allows a engine coolant based LC system with 170* F coolant entering the SC the ability to cool the front case to control expansion of the case and front bearing housing. It isn't the best method, but it works better than nothing.


The best method to cool the SC front bearing housing and case is with ambient temperature coolant, which is what your stock intercooler system is using. This matches the rear bearing housing and SC case being cooled by the ambient air entering the SC at the rear.

This leaves you with little options if you decide to run a trunk tank with ice water. The next best option is to fabricate a separate cooling system with its own pump, HE and small tank for the LC system of the SC where the HE uses ambient air to cool the liquid in the system. Doing this allows you to run ice water in a trunk tank for the SC intercooler system while retaining ambient air temperatures to cool the front case and bearing housing of the SC. By cooling in these methods you remove as much heat as possible without having to worry about a big temperature differential causing the SC case and bearing housings to expand or contract in an uneven manner that will cause rotor contact . With the trunk tank having it own pump, you can use the stock IC pump and IC tank to move the coolant of a separate SC LC system. You'll need install a small HE and plumb it to the the tank and SC coolant lines. This method keeps the expansion and contraction of the case and bearing housings even as possible, while removing as much heat as possible

^^^^Exactly!!

I have never read a claim by KB that the LC system was designed to lower IAT2's. The LC feature is designed to lower the front case temp (water cooled) to better match the rear case temp (air cooled) and in turn equalize the overall case temp. front to rear, or rear to front, depending upon how you want to look at it. I have read KB LC owner accounts who have run their car somewhat hard and then stopped their car, open their hood and place their bare hand on the S/C and it was warm to the touch..............not HOT where flesh sticks/burns to the S/C case surface. This cooling of the case all by itself should be a benefit for heat being transferred to the incoming airflow through the S/C case?

.............and then the S.P.E. which is also incorporated into the KB LC S/C's, but that is a different/unique technology that is beneficial but not part of the LC function.





R

 

[Poisonous West]

The LC system is strictly there to cool the front of the case and front bearing housing of the SC and shouldn't be looked at as a method to reduce IAT2s. When you cool the SC with ice water from a trunk tank for the intercooler system, the case actually contracts in the front from this cooling method. On a hot summer day you now have 95+*F ambient air cooling the rear bearing housing of the SC and 35*F water cooling the front bearing housing. This 60+*F temperature differential in cooling methods causes the front bearing housing to contract too much, while the rear bearing housing is expending. The difference causes the rotors to make contact with each other at the front of the case, due to the differences of a few thousands of an inch in the centerline of the bearings housings from uneven expansion and contraction of the two ends of the SC case and bearing housings.

At high boost levels the SC front bearing housing will see heat from the air exiting the SC. This can be as high as 350*-400*F depending on the boost and ambient temperature of the air entering the SC. These high temperatures allows a engine coolant based LC system with 170* F coolant entering the SC the ability to cool the front case to control expansion of the case and front bearing housing. It isn't the best method, but it works better than nothing.


The best method to cool the SC front bearing housing and case is with ambient temperature coolant, which is what your stock intercooler system is using. This matches the rear bearing housing and SC case being cooled by the ambient air entering the SC at the rear.

This leaves you with little options if you decide to run a trunk tank with ice water. The next best option is to fabricate a separate cooling system with its own pump, HE and small tank for the LC system of the SC where the HE uses ambient air to cool the liquid in the system. Doing this allows you to run ice water in a trunk tank for the SC intercooler system while retaining ambient air temperatures to cool the front case and bearing housing of the SC. By cooling in these methods you remove as much heat as possible without having to worry about a big temperature differential causing the SC case and bearing housings to expand or contract in an uneven manner that will cause rotor contact . With the trunk tank having it own pump, you can use the stock IC pump and IC tank to move the coolant of a separate SC LC system. You'll need install a small HE and plumb it to the the tank and SC coolant lines. This method keeps the expansion and contraction of the case and bearing housings even as possible, while removing as much heat as possible

Bad Company always got it right!!!

The intend of the KB L/C design is to try to cools down (balance) the front portion of the main supercharger housing .Never to lower the IAT2 – even though some guys claims it will prevent heat soak but it does NOT work that way.

There are 3 major heat sources for the supercharger housing:

· Heat conduction from the engine (average cylinder head temperature ~ 200 - 220F) – GT500 S/C bolts to an aluminum intake manifold (extremely heat conductor) which bolts to the hot cylinder head

· Heat due to compressing air inside the S/C (this varies on the boost level and really nothing you can do because compressing air WILL generate heat)

· Heat due to rotating parts (bearings inside the S/C, etc.)

Heat conduction from HOT cylinder heat can be minimalized by making a custom spacer (made of composite material) place between the manifold and cylinder head. In addition, custom machine the intake manifold to remove the hot water passage (both front and rear). Then make some custom adaptors for the front and rear water outlets on the cylinder head. The main benefit of this is to LOWER IAT2 and S/C main housing. Fischer Motorsport has made this set but the price is WAY TOO HIGH. I think I have an idea to make my own set of spacers (made of composite material) and some custom adaptors for the front and rear water outlets for about ¼ of what Fischer Motorsport charge.

Heat due to compressing air can also be minimalized if you have BIG BIG BIG $$$ that you can spare. It is 3-D print the S/C housing using Carbon Composite material. This material is NOT easy to find and MOST of the 3-D printing shop out there do NOT offer this material because it is very expensive. Only big company have access and have the $$$ to afford this material. I have seemed (actually held in my hand for inspection) a 3-D print part made of Carbon Composite material. They are super strong and low heat conduction but requires post processing treatment to make the surface smooth – the part I inspected has this post processing treatment.

Heat due to rotating parts like bearings, gears, oil can be cooling by using liquid which is KB L/C design. There are total of 6 bearings inside a S/C for the GT500.

· 2 bearings in the back (pressed into the main S/C housing) cool by the incoming ambient temperature.

· 2 bearings pressed into the center bearing support plate for the rotor packs.

· 2 bearings for the front pulley shaft (pressed into the front small housing)

Due to rotating gears, these 4 bearings (the front and the 2 in the middle) are cooled by the oil. In the KB L/C design, this is what they are trying to cools down – the hot oil and in turn cools down the bearings, the center bearing support plate, the main housing, and the front small housing.

I already have designed a L/C center bearing support plate that work for the TVS S/C. I truly believe my L/C center bearing support plate design is even better than the KB design. The local machine shop quote me very reasonable price to machine the plate but for whatever reason their CNC machine does NOT have the tight tolerance I need. Also, there are 2 seal that needs to replace which is hard to find. I talk to VMP before but they can’t help. I am very sure VMP can EASILY get a few of this seal from Roush since their VMP Gen II-R S/C are assemble buy Roush.



One final note, for those who has the KB Bigun intercooler, the instruction calls out to machine (cut) the front 0.25” (6.35mm). That’s not correct. I have seemed pictures of few machined manifold at 0.25” with the Bigun intercooler installed. I also did multiple measurement to confirm that before I machine my intake manifold. The correct length to cut at the front is 8mm and that’s how I machine it on my own manifold.

 

[Robert M]

Bad Company always got it right!!!

The intend of the KB L/C design is to try to cools down (balance) the front portion of the main supercharger housing .Never to lower the IAT2 – even though some guys claims it will prevent heat soak but it does NOT work that way.

There are 3 major heat sources for the supercharger housing:

· Heat conduction from the engine (average cylinder head temperature ~ 200 - 220F) – GT500 S/C bolts to an aluminum intake manifold (extremely heat conductor) which bolts to the hot cylinder head

· Heat due to compressing air inside the S/C (this varies on the boost level and really nothing you can do because compressing air WILL generate heat)

· Heat due to rotating parts (bearings inside the S/C, etc.)

Heat conduction from HOT cylinder heat can be minimalized by making a custom spacer (made of composite material) place between the manifold and cylinder head. In addition, custom machine the intake manifold to remove the hot water passage (both front and rear). Then make some custom adaptors for the front and rear water outlets on the cylinder head. The main benefit of this is to LOWER IAT2 and S/C main housing. Fischer Motorsport has made this set but the price is WAY TOO HIGH. I think I have an idea to make my own set of spacers (made of composite material) and some custom adaptors for the front and rear water outlets for about ¼ of what Fischer Motorsport charge.

Heat due to compressing air can also be minimalized if you have BIG BIG BIG $$$ that you can spare. It is 3-D print the S/C housing using Carbon Composite material. This material is NOT easy to find and MOST of the 3-D printing shop out there do NOT offer this material because it is very expensive. Only big company have access and have the $$$ to afford this material. I have seemed (actually held in my hand for inspection) a 3-D print part made of Carbon Composite material. They are super strong and low heat conduction but requires post processing treatment to make the surface smooth – the part I inspected has this post processing treatment.

Heat due to rotating parts like bearings, gears, oil can be cooling by using liquid which is KB L/C design. There are total of 6 bearings inside a S/C for the GT500.

· 2 bearings in the back (pressed into the main S/C housing) cool by the incoming ambient temperature.

· 2 bearings pressed into the center bearing support plate for the rotor packs.

· 2 bearings for the front pulley shaft (pressed into the front small housing)

Due to rotating gears, these 4 bearings (the front and the 2 in the middle) are cooled by the oil. In the KB L/C design, this is what they are trying to cools down – the hot oil and in turn cools down the bearings, the center bearing support plate, the main housing, and the front small housing.

I already have designed a L/C center bearing support plate that work for the TVS S/C. I truly believe my L/C center bearing support plate design is even better than the KB design. The local machine shop quote me very reasonable price to machine the plate but for whatever reason their CNC machine does NOT have the tight tolerance I need. Also, there are 2 seal that needs to replace which is hard to find. I talk to VMP before but they can’t help. I am very sure VMP can EASILY get a few of this seal from Roush since their VMP Gen II-R S/C are assemble buy Roush.



One final note, for those who has the KB Bigun intercooler, the instruction calls out to machine (cut) the front 0.25” (6.35mm). That’s not correct. I have seemed pictures of few machined manifold at 0.25” with the Bigun intercooler installed. I also did multiple measurement to confirm that before I machine my intake manifold. The correct length to cut at the front is 8mm and that’s how I machine it on my own manifold.

Thank you for that in-depth explanation.

I have a KB BIGUN I/C also and a spare lower manifold that has been modded previous to my purchase, I may touch base with you to verify that my manifold has been properly modded.

You don't happen to know of anyone who has a bottom plate for a GT500 lower, do you? This would be the plate below the I/C.



R

 

[Catmonkey]

The lower plate is available from Ford, although not cheap. 7R3Z-9424-AA

The gasket for it isn't cheap either. 7R3Z-9E436-AA