JLT Carbon intake tube question, plus a tuning related question

[mustangc]

Anyone who remembers me knows I'm uneasy about the concept of letting anyone outside of Ford tune my GT500. Since Ford Performance Parts has chosen to offer nothing for the Trinity in that respect, I'm limiting my mod list to items that don't require a tune. I'm considering a silencer delete, either FRPP or JLT. I notice the carbon fiber unit from JLT has been discontinued. Only painted, black plastic, or hydrocarbon is offered.

The authentic Carbon fiber was something I always associated with JLT and was one of the things that set them apart (and above) the rest in my opinion. Does anyone know why they have gone away from the authentic CF? I realize hydrocarbon is cheaper, but the authentic CF appeared to sell well, and presented a nice touch of class. Fwiw, I did a quick search on this subject, but didn't find anything unless it is hidden in another string. I apologize if this has already been asked.

Next on the list would have been a CJ twin 65mm throttle body. The tune/no tune discussion has been beaten to death already, so I don't want to discuss that topic specifically, but I'm more interested in practical tuning theory. Ford Performance parts says you need one, but I haven't yet heard anyone who actually tunes these things explain why that is, and what they'd HAVE to change. I.e. "The 65mm throttle body requires a tune because..." In my day (when speed density was first replaced by mass air systems), the benefit of a mass air system was that it would automatically compensate for airflow changes as long as you didn't change the mass air diameter. In the early 90's we could change heads, throttle bodies, intakes, headers and exhaust without requiring a tune. What has changed, or what have we learned that has made that expectation obsolete?

 

[Mainn]

Just a quick response before I have to go out. I can elaborate later.

The introduction of drive-by-wire has brought a whole new swell of different effects and adjustments. In simple terms, recent Ford's are based on a torque-demand system, where your throttle position and your rpm request a specific torque value delivered by the engine. In the tune, there are tables such as effective throttle area (for the throttle body) which should theoretically be adjusted for any increase or decrease in size and throttle body, among other tables. However, you can sometimes get away with the stock tune for the small differences, which is why some are able to run the 65mm CJ perfectly fine without a tune adjustment.

 

[1 Alibi 2]

Two items:
To get the full benefit of upgrading from a twin 60mm to twin 65mm, you should get a tune.
The owner of the shop that does my tuning used to work for Ford as a tuner, he does all the tuning, may want to touch base with them.
.
www.teamjdm.com
.

 

[Robot_trainer]

Anyone who remembers me knows I'm uneasy about the concept of letting anyone outside of Ford tune my GT500. Since Ford Performance Parts has chosen to offer nothing for the Trinity in that respect, I'm limiting my mod list to items that don't require a tune. I'm considering a silencer delete, either FRPP or JLT. I notice the carbon fiber unit from JLT has been discontinued. Only painted, black plastic, or hydrocarbon is offered.

The authentic Carbon fiber was something I always associated with JLT and was one of the things that set them apart (and above) the rest in my opinion. Does anyone know why they have gone away from the authentic CF? I realize hydrocarbon is cheaper, but the authentic CF appeared to sell well, and presented a nice touch of class. Fwiw, I did a quick search on this subject, but didn't find anything unless it is hidden in another string. I apologize if this has already been asked.

Next on the list would have been a CJ twin 65mm throttle body. The tune/no tune discussion has been beaten to death already, so I don't want to discuss that topic specifically, but I'm more interested in practical tuning theory. Ford Performance parts says you need one, but I haven't yet heard anyone who actually tunes these things explain why that is, and what they'd HAVE to change. I.e. "The 65mm throttle body requires a tune because..." In my day (when speed density was first replaced by mass air systems), the benefit of a mass air system was that it would automatically compensate for airflow changes as long as you didn't change the mass air diameter. In the early 90's we could change heads, throttle bodies, intakes, headers and exhaust without requiring a tune. What has changed, or what have we learned that has made that expectation obsolete?

My understanding is that they went away from the carbon fiber for two reasons. Cost, and it was susceptible to cracking/vacuum leaks. It is also my understanding that it is the MAF in the JLT CAI that is different due to increased air flow and that is the main reason the tune is needed. They simply open up the limits in some of the parameters to handle the increased air flow.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting a tune for a cold air intake/throttle body change. Guys like Lund, Van Collier, VMP, etc have the tune for this down cold as it really is only a mild tweak to the OEM tune. Where it gets dicey is when you start adding larger blowers, cams, headers, bigger injectors, exhaust system, cat delete, etc. At that point you probably need to be on dyno and getting a custom tune. If you have a good relationship with your dealer and something happens that is not related to the tune, they will look after you I'm sure.

 

[VNMOUS1]

JLT stopped producing the carbon fiber unit because they couldn't find a source that would consistently meet their stringent quality standards. I've had a few CF JLTs over the years and while mine were fine, carbon is an inexact 'science'. I've also owned a number of Ducati's and I can tell you that their mega-dollar DagoChrome (I can say that since I'm half Italian) isn't any better than most....and the inconsistencies were worse than most aftermarket stuff.

As for the TB. 2010 was the first year for an open airbox. They used a variant of the KR calibration for it. It's fairly forgiving. You SHOULD be able to clear your keep alive memory, load the tune, let it go through the idle and low load learning and be ok on the factory cal. Will it be optimized? No. Should it run? Yes.

bj

 

[SVT-PWR]

Not to steal this thread, but on the topic, if I want a JLT carbon fiber Super Big Intake I should probably get it now before stock runs out?

 

[mustangc]

Just a quick response before I have to go out. I can elaborate later.

The introduction of drive-by-wire has brought a whole new swell of different effects and adjustments. In simple terms, recent Ford's are based on a torque-demand system, where your throttle position and your rpm request a specific torque value delivered by the engine. In the tune, there are tables such as effective throttle area (for the throttle body) which should theoretically be adjusted for any increase or decrease in size and throttle body, among other tables. However, you can sometimes get away with the stock tune for the small differences, which is why some are able to run the 65mm CJ perfectly fine without a tune adjustment.

Thanks everyone for the feedback regarding the carbon fiber stuff. I figured it might be supplier quality related or an issue with the suitability of the material for the application. It's a shame, because they look awesome.

Mainn, thanks for your response. It has helped me begin to understand the "why". I'm probably oversimplifying your explanation regarding the tuning strategy, but it sounds like 2005 and the switch to drive-by-wire is when my old mass air rule of thumb became outdated. The computer reads pedal position as a request for torque, and utilizes preprogrammed information to calculate the necessary throttle position.

Pedal position -> torque request -> throttle position calculation -> throttle body angle adjustment

So here are my ignorant assumptions: Since a the twin 65 isn't drastically different than the stock twin 60, the commands given by the ECU are probably close enough for decent drive ability. The higher flowing throttle will supply more air at a given position. While the mass air and oxygen sensor should acknowledge the new airflow and match the fuel delivery accordingly, the increased charge will lead to a 'snappier' throttle response. Not necessarily a bad thing but I could see it interfering with idle/traction/launch/stability/cruise control a bit. Again, not much on a modest dual blade throttle body, but a big mono blade would definitely upset the apple cart using the stock tables. Is my logic correct? Again, I'm not taking sides on the throttle body debate, just trying to understand the strategy being used by the Copperhead ECU.

 

[mustangc]

Two items:
To get the full benefit of upgrading from a twin 60mm to twin 65mm, you should get a tune.
The owner of the shop that does my tuning used to work for Ford as a tuner, he does all the tuning, may want to touch base with them.
.
www.teamjdm.com
.

1 Alibi 2, it's funny you should mention JDM. I was at the Cobra Jet shootout at Norwalk last weekend and was hoping to see Jim and maybe talk to him a bit. He must not have been there. A Ford dealer in my area offers a CJ throttle body, Ford silencer eliminator, filter and tune kit they say is provided by JDM.

It's tempting, but you have to understand the first Mustang I ever had dyno tuned (my '96 Mystic) came back with a cooked engine, being 0-for-1 I'm extremely reluctant to sail on that ship again. Interestingly, the shop came highly recommended by my neighbor at the time, Mustang racer and 5.0 column writer Dr. Jamie Meyer. Of course now he's head of GM performance, go figure...

While I agree that custom tuning is required to maximize power for any given combination, the engine's sensors are there to constantly adjust for the day-to-day changes in environmental and engine conditions, and should keep things operating properly given reasonable changes. A tune is required to change the location and size of that operating envelope when necessary. Therein lies my caution with aftermarket tunes. I'm comfortable with the factory envelope, the one that can handle an occasional tank of bad gas, and has been field tested at extreme conditions. It leaves some power on the table, but I'm fine with that. If the factory aggressiveness is a 7 on a scale of 1-10, I'd like to remain a 7, but with only the changes required to compensate for the bolt-ons installed. That's why the Ford Performance ProCal tunes fit me well. Unfortunately, my Trinity has been orphaned by them. But I'm whining, now back to the tuning theory discussion...

 

[mustangc]

Not to steal this thread, but on the topic, if I want a JLT carbon fiber Super Big Intake I should probably get it now before stock runs out?

If you want one and know of a place with stock on hand, you'd better buy it quick. That's why I asked about the reason for dropping CF. I found a place that claims to have the stock size silencer eliminator in CF, but before I pull the trigger I want to know the flaw that led to the products discontinuation.

 

[biminiLX]

Hey buddy, is your brother running with his CJ yet?
We were there but had to leave sat afternoon due to family commitments, my brother still finished 4th in True Street but still we had to work on the car way more than ever (failed fuel pump). Still great NMCA moved the Finals to Norwalk, great race.
Anyway, as long as you keep the mods mild, I don't see how you can go wrong with one of the reputable tuners.
What do you want from the car is the right question?
You know we talked about this, but just 4.10s, 305 NT555Rs, CJ TB and mild tune would transform the car for you. Plus you can datalog it to know it's safe, the commanded wide band O2s are a game changer for tuning.
Good luck, you'll enjoy the mild mods if you pull the trigger.
-J
:beer:

 

[tomshep]

Mustangc,

We have been down the same path in our Mustang walk. My first was a 79 coupe, then a 95 Cobra vert and now in my 14 Shelby.

I also don't want to mess with a tune but have done a few light mods over the last two years.

First was an Airaid washable and Resonator Delete. Drivability was fine and I picked up a slight amount of blower whine. Drove it that way for well over a year. Then, I added a JLT hydrocarbon plastic intake tube. Stock MAF. I am pleased with the part and it fits well. I will say they could have gone a little larger on some of the hose clamps to make for an easier install. I like the hydrocarbon look. It picked up a little more blower whine and no negative driving. I then decided to add a CJ 65 TB on a stock tune about a month ago. Overall, it drives good. But, I do seem to notice some slight surging at times and the throttle doesn't seem OEM smooth at times. Maybe I am being hyper critical. I am trying to pay attention to the drivabiity of the vehicle. I am tempted to swap the OEM TB back in to compare.

Tom

 

[Robot_trainer]

1 Alibi 2, it's funny you should mention JDM. I was at the Cobra Jet shootout at Norwalk last weekend and was hoping to see Jim and maybe talk to him a bit. He must not have been there. A Ford dealer in my area offers a CJ throttle body, Ford silencer eliminator, filter and tune kit they say is provided by JDM.

It's tempting, but you have to understand the first Mustang I ever had dyno tuned (my '96 Mystic) came back with a cooked engine, being 0-for-1 I'm extremely reluctant to sail on that ship again. Interestingly, the shop came highly recommended by my neighbor at the time, Mustang racer and 5.0 column writer Dr. Jamie Meyer. Of course now he's head of GM performance, go figure...

While I agree that custom tuning is required to maximize power for any given combination, the engine's sensors are there to constantly adjust for the day-to-day changes in environmental and engine conditions, and should keep things operating properly given reasonable changes. A tune is required to change the location and size of that operating envelope when necessary. Therein lies my caution with aftermarket tunes. I'm comfortable with the factory envelope, the one that can handle an occasional tank of bad gas, and has been field tested at extreme conditions. It leaves some power on the table, but I'm fine with that. If the factory aggressiveness is a 7 on a scale of 1-10, I'd like to remain a 7, but with only the changes required to compensate for the bolt-ons installed. That's why the Ford Performance ProCal tunes fit me well. Unfortunately, my Trinity has been orphaned by them. But I'm whining, now back to the tuning theory discussion...

I am by no means an expert at this since I'm from the knuckle dragging era with carbs and distributors. From what I've read the factory tune can handle quite a bit as far as changes that allow more air flow. The problem is if the airflow goes outside of the limits of what the oem software is set up to handle. The cold air kit uses a different mass air flow sensor. If the sensors request a change the software cant accommodation you might see dreaded wrench light. I too am leary of messing with the OEM tune, however, I would be more worried about adding the throttle body and cold air intake and risk running lean. As I mentioned, this kit has been used thousands of times and has been around for quite a while, that it really is a no brainer for a good tuner like Lund, or VMP. Remember these guys also do a lot of testing and dialing in. They can give a tune that's right on the money since this is an out of the box mod. If you data log the car afterwards they can dial it in far more accurately for you car than the OEM since that strategy is a one size fits all as well. Its when you get into the bigger blowers, head work, headers, x pipes, cat delete and cams that really need a custom tune and dyno time.