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Discussion in '2020+ Shelby GT500 Mustang' started by D'ZR1 Messiah, Jun 19, 2019.
You misspelled fasst. /thread.
You spelled it wrong.
There’s a stripper trim 3400lbs 2019 mustang eco boost for sale. Go drive it side by side with a 3750lbs gt350r and tell me if it feels lighter or heavier. I’ll wait.
The 03 cobra was a fat ass at the time too. It was 3-400lbs heavier than a stripper ss, or gt. How did that go again?
•irs made it heavier.
•supercharger made it heavier
•iron block made it heavier
•adjustable driver seat was stupid heavy.
•bigger brakes made it heavier
•wider bigger wheel/tire package made it heavier
•thicker sway bars and beefier knuckles/hubs/spindles/steering box, made it heavier
At the time the car was 500lbs heavier than a z06 corvette.
Arguably and easily, that car was and still is punching well beyond its weight or contemporaries and it’s resale value shows it.
You can say this new gt500 is a fatass, but it will punch well beyond its weight class, and hold its value far better than the rest of its contemporaries.
Ferrari 599 (meant to say the 2020 Ferrari 812 super fast) is pushing nearly 4,000lbs from an NA v12 2 seat coupe. The gt500 is pushing 4150lbs (200-300 heavier) with a price tag 1/5th the size, with a mod friendly sc 5.2 able to handle 4 digit power, 4 Seats, bigger trunk, and with 9/10th the performance or more.
this isn’t 2004 it isn’t that impressive when guys are running mid to low 10s with a coyote without much issue. I don’t like the new gt500 because IMO ford could of done a lot more to it. People have waited years for the top
Dog to return, and well it’s not doing anything new or special besides the cool DCT
Humor me, what more could they have done in your opinion?
It could have been whittled from a block of carbon fiber, had 809hp plus Ford could have FedEx'd you a FTW purple tuned ECU and it should have been AWD.
Oh and FE is so 2019...It really should have been ME.
Should have been TT V8/DCT.
My only disappointment but I may be crazy enough to pull off the TVS and install a sleeper Hellion kit in time.
I think they gave us a killer platform, I’ll do some mild mods and keep this one wife night friendly
A stock or mildly modded 03 Cobra doesn't touch a C6 Z06 that's stock and definitely mildly modded. I've wasted plenty of Cobras with my C6Z, the lighter weight and better aero with LS7 power keeps it ahead. You need big blower power on the Cobra to be ahead and then a HCI C6Z can easily run with it or away. That's why my Z has a nickname, I called it "Whipple Whipper".
Now the Ferrari thing, 812 Superfast is 3850lbs (same as 13/14 GT500) so yes in a way pushing 2 tons as you say but still 300 lbs lighter. It's pushing 2 tons with a driver and last time I checked the new 500 has a DCT but doesn't self drive itself so add a driver in that car and it's still much heavier than an 812.
The 812 is a GT car so yes the 500 probably could handle better than it but in acceleration and top speed the Superfast will be ahead + that DCT shifts like nothing else on earth I'm pretty sure the Tremec DCT will be playing catch up to be like the Ferrari trans. Your comment about mod friendly, 4 digit power etc etc NOBODY really knows yet so you are just going by what can be done with the previous powerplants. The big unknown is still that DCT, making all the extra power isn't going to do anything with a trans that won't live to put that torque to the pavement.
Your continued defense of the new 500 is admirable, but I really don't think it should take 10+ months for all the stats to be released (I hear a press thing is happening shortly so maybe we will FINALLY know all). As I've said earlier my patience ran out for this car so I'm pounding the pavement with a new ZR1. I have more patience in my lotto #'s coming through so I can park a Superfast (love it, my current dream car) in my garage with my ZR1.
It would feel heavier. Magnaride makes a huge difference in roll, which is where a big majority of weight is felt. Also, the carbon rims make steering feel lighter. My R is a 36xx lbs base model.
My experience on bolt on terminators vs stock c6z’s was driver mod could eek a win in a straight line. Most races would go to the vette. Pitted blower terminator was basically a stock or mild (catback and Cai) z06 beater. My point was the cobra was heavy for the time, and still did just fine. Good sum of parts made it formidable. It could have been 300lbs lighterwithan aluminum block, t3650 trans, and NA making 350hp. Would have been nothing as far as history would remember it.
The superfast is about 220lbs lighter than a 2020 gt500 track pack carbon wheel car. The motortrend weight was without a driver, but with fluids.
Cheers. I want the gt500 to be lighter, but until a manual is an option (won’t happen) there isn’t any way to substantially reduce curb weight. Ford wasn’t lazy engineering the car, they just have continued over building their factory effort in the face of sociocultural norms like curb weight, hp rating, aero ricy appearance etc. I’m calling it as I see it. What makes SVT then and FP now great is the desire to do more than just sell cars. Colletti put $500+ of con rods in a $35k mustang when the prior cobra had $4-8 rods. FP offered $15k carbon fiber wheels on a $67k mustang. This kind of passion is void in the performance world until you hit far triple digits. It’s only now becoming more common. They’ve done this for decades.
^exactly. That was exactly my point. The stock base suspension eco boost feels heavier than a magna ride gt. The gt350r feels 500lbs lighter than a gt350 based on my experience.
@ tt335ci03cobra you know this info but for those that don't "Terminators" earned their nickname because at the time its immediate competition 4th gen F-bodies with LS1 power (305hp or 320hp SS/Firehawk) and C5 Vettes (Z06) with 385-405hp LS6 were NA vs. the Mustang being SC. It was also underrated (most were dyno-ing its advertised HP # at the rear wheels so really they were making like 450hp at the engine, a crazy # at the time).
Colletti knew there was no way in hell regular rods would live inside a boosted 4.6 so that's why they got the killer Manley rods in them much to the distain of the Ford marketing types and bean counters but because of the intake fiasco with the 99 Cobra they didn't want a repeat of that episode so the Manley rods stayed.
Compared to its immediate competition as mentioned above it was a killer package, then the C6 Z06 showed up and it was over for the boosted Cobra. The heavy Cobra with stock boosted power was no match for a lighter, more powerful NA Z06 packing 505hp (around 440-450 @ the wheels stock), better handling and aero.
Sure, a driver mod stock Termi should take down a stock C6Z with a driver that sucked or napping but if the Z driver was on the ball...………..not a chance. It was easy to add power to a Termi and why most were modded and even then you still have to overcome the heavier weight a Termi has over a C6Z stock or mildly modded.
Termis hold their value mostly due to the fact of the 2 year run, and that engine with the Manley rods vs. Camaros and Vettes of the same years. Even the 13/14 500's at the moment don't hold the % of value that the 03-04 Cobras currently have (that may change however in the near future...……………...and I probably got rid of my 13 a tad early).
It's funny you say above in your post that there isn't any way to substantially reduce weight in this car...…………..earlier posts from you have you saying "it's easy to lose 500lbs. out of this car" so which is it???? I'll tell you, it's not easy to lose the weight.
For the new 500, again I keep repeating myself the performance stats need to be revealed then the car will be judged by the car buying public as to whether it delivers or not. My wife had mentioned to me...…………"if this car put up the #'s they would be bragging about it and not keeping it a secret for this long". It's as if they are still trying to wring out what more they can out of it and time is running out meanwhile a lot has changed in the 5+ years since the 13/14 cars were out (Demon/Hellcat redeye, ZR1 etc etc).
This car will hold its value and place in history only if it delivers and model year production is kept low, otherwise it's just a boosted Mustang and there's tons of them driving around making the same or more power. It's factory engineered mind you over afkt/home modded but there's nothing new here with this car if it doesn't deliver (other than the DCT and CF wheels).
Like I said, I went new ZR1. I had all the stats of what the car is capable of doing before buying (and was lucky to find one late in the model year here in Canada), a 1 year production run, most powerful and the last FE-RD Vette that is made still with a manual trans, my new car should hold its value pretty well, most likely better than this new GT500.
All this talk is fun, but at the end of the day, you buy what you want.
On the weight thing, how much does the ZR1 weigh?
The top level CFTP GT500 will be about 4050-4070.
A base Mustang GT weight? A base C7?
Just wondering the gains going from base model to top dog across the Vetta and Mustang lines.
ZR1 is 3650lbs. 51/49% weight distribution according to what I could find online and in my brochure.
I have the shipping invoice of my car from the plant to my dealer it shows shipping weight @ 1597kg which is 3520lbs. That's with a basically empty gas tank.
So I just googled base C7 weight is 3300# and add 350# for the ZR1.
Base Mustang GT weight 3705, so add about the same 350# for a CFTP GT500.
Like I’ve said I’d love to eventually drive a ZR1, but I’d personally rather have the next 500 and a Backdraft Cobra roadster (my wife’s ideal car I can build her).
Looking forward to seeing your car review, pics and vid Tony.
The engineers I’ve spoke to have said 4150-70 base, 4050-70 CFTP, but I’ll believe it when guys get their cars.
I just can’t see 4225#
When has ford shouted from the mountain top it’s performance?
nada for the 03.
Nada for the 07.
11 only after the lousy ll time, which was like 4 months after dealers had them.
Video: Shelby GT500 Tested At Virginia International Raceway @ Top Speed
13/14 1/4 hot laps(much different than the demon hero run) right before release.
Media day was on the same day as deliveries were being made.
Next week is the gt500 press event in Vegas. Will there be numbers? My guess no just what editors run not pro driving numbers.
Ford does things way different than GM or dodge.
I prefer the c7 zr1 to the new gt500 so good buy and I agree the manual should keep value. Ya the auto is faster but when you work and save $125k for a car, it’s fun to drive the damn thing. I’m not over defending the gt500. It’s already showing to run fine. The passes at gratten show that. I was on the fence until I saw those laps. Fords marketing department is at the least, neglecting to make buzz imo. I’d market the car much differently.
Regarding the terminator,
When the terminator came out it shat on c5 z’s with just a pulley and bolt ons. Comparing the 2003/04 terminator to the 2007+ c6z is fair game considering how much of an ass kicking the $35k cobra’s with $500 of parts put on the then $54k z06’s. Since those c5 z’s were dead on arrival, it was fair to compare the then new $65k+ 2007 c6z against a 3-4 year old bolt on cobra and hopefully beat it since the Chevy owners had so much ass hurt from their c5 z’s getting eaten up. The 2003 cobra couldn’t stand on the totem forever just like the grand national gnx couldn’t either, and the 2007 gt500 nodded or stock with their weight, and boxy aero were proving to be easy pickings for z06’s. Easier than pulley cobra’s.
Guys started putting whipples and kennybells on cobra’s to stay relevant, and started eating up c6z’s so c6z guys started putting h/c/i on their brittle thin ls7’s (I never got the ls7 hype. The na 6.4 hemi makes 485hp for far less money. Ls7’s were selling for $25k crate engine and I would laugh back then.) and started blowing up the na mills with barely 650whp which was funny to watch as guys with these $65-80k cars were dumping $10k to essentially do what pushrod 5.0 guys were doing for $3-5k in the 80’s and 90’s (h/c/i for an extra 150-200whp albeit 400whp vs 650whp admittedly, but also $15k 5.0 making 400whp more reliably for $3-5k vs a $65-80k z06 pickin up similar gains for $5-10k+ and blowing up far more often there after.)
The funny thing is I am on the fence of buying a clean stock c6z or c8 z51 in a few years as a daily so I’m no corvette hater. I might even buy a c5z as a fun toy between now and then. I like pushrods, and corvettes so don’t get bent up on my straight shooting. I call it as I see it. I wouldn’t do hci on an ls7. I’ve seen 7/8 blow up that did so here. Maybe it’s mountain air but they went pop.
You’re mixing up a lot of what was discussed regarding weight for the gt500.vvvvvvvvvv
When I said you can pull out 500lbs from a gt500 easy, it was in context of stripping the interior, trunk, a/c, electronics and comforts to make a club racer as @13COBRA and his car groups do to expensive cars for hotlapping and track toying. His exact words were imagine what it will do stripped out. Pulling the interior and trunk and electronics from a gt500 and putting in a single sparco, toggle switches and a minimal cage is a pretty easy 1-2 day job and worth at least 500 lbs. That was the point and unless you forgot, it was a straight and simple point at that time.
Ford isn’t going to put a shitbox interior on the market for $75-110k unless the buyer is buying something like a gt350rc or similar race/track setup that will rarely if ever see the street.
Ford got the gt500 to about 4070-4150lbs depending on options. Considering the trans, blower, brakes, coolers, and aero are minimum 350lbs, they actually found places to drop weight.
Add up everything added to the gt500
•16” brakes front, (13” or 14” rear?)
•blower and many coolers
•wider front track, fenders.
•305/35/20 wheels to clear brakes
•aero both carbon and base package
•new front suspension and cradle (dropped weight)
•9qt oil system
•bigger bars/heavier springs/beefier knuckles, hubs and spindles
It’s not like ford just put a 350lbs ball of lead in the back seat.
My point in bringing up the terminator stands. Just like that car with its 3620lbs easily shed its weight and performed excellent for its weight, (so damn heavy for 2003.) this car at 4070-4150lbs will shed it’s weight easily.
Again congrats on the manual c7 zr1, I’d buy one if I had the cash. It shits on the Ferrari 812 superfast and should shit on the new gt500. It’s exeptionally done, and imo has a really awesome look. It is very similar to the c7r in appearance. Enjoy.
I never liked the C5Z...………..not a fan. The C6Z was where it's at when they came out however I didn't bite till they had a couple years of production in and I was not going to spend the new cash on a C6Z with just a boring plastic interior dash and door panels. I went in full gusto with the full load leather interior. The only way to roll IMO.
The LS7 thing is all about the legendary cubes of being a 7.0 (427 cid engine) and the cyl. head thing...…………..it is what it is. I've done my heads and since it's apart obviously I had to throw a cam in. A lot of guys overcam and throw major lift in there and with that aggressive 1.8 rocker ratio + the angled intake rocker the guide wear is going to be there. Probably a flawed design from GM but if you build them right and not too crazy they are reliable and rarely have issues.
5.0 SBF engines have been around for AGES, so the costs to mod that engine is going to be way cheaper than trying to mod a LS7 that's only been out like 4-5 years after 06 and probably when people start having the itch or problem to need to mod/fix their 7.0 engines so can't really compare, and when you mention Corvette for anything parts related...…………..bend over and open the wallet...………….you gotta pay to play with a car like this and it won't be any different with this new Shelby or even any Shelby parts costs are CRAZY!!!!!!
Rear brakes on new GT500 are 14.5" (16.5" F) so pretty big for rear brakes (the rear brakes on the ZR is 15" and 15.5" F but you know they are CC so huge and lighter weight obviously than any Mustang brake system).
Like I said before, and you are correct to lose the weight you are talking about yes you need to strip the crap out of the car. If someone has the means and is using the car to track hey by all means go for it. I'm just saying the majority that will buy this car WILL NOT be going that far and yanking everything out just to not have the car weigh 4XXXlbs. I'm certainly not stripping out my fully loaded ZR1 interior just to have a lighter car it shows up from GM with what it has and I'm not touching it (at least not yet, not when it's new...……….talk to me in a couple years and my mindset might change).
All I want to see from this Shelby is the usual figures every car nut wants to see and not just a weight and 0-100-0 times 10 months after they cable dropped the car from the rafters at the NAIAS back in January. I mean Chevy with the ZR1 intro in Dubai in late 2017 and C8 out in Cali back in July most everything people wanted to know about the performance stats were released...………...no f-ing idea why Ford did what they did with this GT500...………...madness!!!!!
I agree, Ford marketing needs to give this car the gloat it seems to command.
When you are leading the class, it’s ok to lay a little Mohammad Ali in there the let people know.
The demon isn’t yet as fast as dodge got but hey, no one rightfully shits on it because people have come close, and dodge admitted they pulled out all the stops.
If ford drops say a 1:32.x with a factory race driver at leguna and they start broadcasting that 3 months ago to build mystic (pie sky but hear me out) and let’s say Randy phobst gets it and only goes 1:33.25, hey it’s still within he public’s mind that it’s doable in perfect conditions.
The 2013 came out early and strong as 200mph factory. Motortrend hit 196 on an oval at 2500ft altitude. People still to this day say it’s a 200mph factory car, not 196.
Ford needs to start proudly promoting what the car has done regardless how perfect the conditions.
So far, the right lip is just costing them sales. We know it’s under 11 second quarter mile and 0-60 in the mid 3’s.. alright. Thanks for that Ford, give us some more please
I've reached the conclusion that they really don't want to be in the performance game by choice. It would seem that only as a result of quite a bit of external pressure did they finally get off their ass.
They have taken way too long to get this one done and out the door. That tells me they have neither the desire or the ability (or both) to cut through the red tape. That's a management issue or apparently a success in the eyes of their new CEO.
You nailed it. Ford has been in cost cutting mode for some time. The Board doesnt want to spend any money and they are cutting corners big time. I bet the higher ups hate having to spend Millions upon Millions to get this car out the door, just for a few units.
It simply doesnt fit their narrative anylonger.