How much more flow does E54 need over pump fuel?

[RedVenom48]

Hello. This question/thread is in reference to a 2011 GT500 that will be a weekend street/strip car with mid 10 second 1/4 mile goals. Eyeing a way to run E54 flex fuel. Ive read after some research that E85 commands a 30% increase in flow over pump gas. Since E54 has 30% less ethanol content, would I be correct in thinking that it needs less flow than E85?

Ill just come out and say it, I have a hard time justifying a $3000-$4000 return fuel system for E54. If I had guaranteed access to E85 at multiple locations near me on the pump, there would be zero hesitation investing in a full return system. According to Kenne Bell Literature, the 13-14 fuel system is capable of running E85 with a competition BAP up to about 850hp. How much of that is KB trying to push its product solution or if they are just stating fact, I dont know.

Ive got my brain firing on all cylinders trying to figure out how to upgrade my 2011 GT500 fuel system to run E54. Thats as hot as it gets in AZ. Only one station I know carries anything close to E85, but I have no idea if thats normal or a mistake. Most others are at the minimum for E54 Flex Fuel. Read the link for the issue in Arizona:

https://www.svtperformance.com/foru...s-e54-now-any-other-states-like-this.1121571/


Current idea is to pull my fuel pump hat, replace the stock fuel pumps with 2 DW300m pumps and add a JMS 21v competition pump booster. Upgrade fuel injectors to ID 1050X.

Next year's tax returns are going toward a bigger blower for my car, probably either a VMP Gen 3 (if the TB issues are sorted) a KB 4.2LC or Whipple 4.0L. With the potential for more boost I need more anti knock capability. Choices are I either run 95/100 pump race fuel for $80-$125 a tank or I find a way to run E54.

Any and all ideas/comments are appreciated.

 

[bigmoose]

E54 has a stoichiometry of 13.09. If my math is right (1/14.09) it's only about 7% more flow than pump(E10).

I believe studies have also shown that E50 gas about the same knock resistance than higher concentrations.

 

[RedVenom48]

E54 has a stoichiometry of 13.09. If my math is right (1/14.09) it's only about 7% more flow than pump(E10).

I believe studies have also shown that E50 gas about the same knock resistance than higher concentrations.

bigmoose I appreciate the reply. If its a roughly 7% increase, I might be able to use the 56# injectors I have. Will give a call to my tuner and see what he thinks.

 

[RedVenom48]

Well, bad news for me. Contacted my tuner and for 2007-2012 GT500s, they will not tune for ANY ethanol blend (E11+) unless the car has a full return fuel system AND ID1050X's. 13-14 GT500's seem to be a different story, which is slightly comical that its essentially the same car with bigger pumps factory.

Eh... for now Ill plan to get the pump booster, rails and maybe get the ID1050xs. Race gas is the life for me when its track day

 

[MG0h3]

Get with 04sleeper.

The octane doesn’t dip much above E50 if I remember correctly. Someone else was asking about the AZ ethanol and he said he’d still run it all day over 91/93.


Sent from my iPhone using svtperformance.com

 

[Zemedici]

Dumb question, if you’re going to spend $5000 on a fuel system, what’s preventing you from ordering a 55 gallon drum of corn and keeping it in your garage, and just fill her up when you need to?

 

[RedVenom48]

Dumb question, if you’re going to spend $5000 on a fuel system, what’s preventing you from ordering a 55 gallon drum of corn and keeping it in your garage, and just fill her up when you need to?

That's kinda of the problem. At this point I cant really justify $4-5k for a stand alone fuel system and injectors for E54. At least not all at once, specially if the Stoich of E54 is 13 instead of 14.0 for E10 Pump gas.

I honestly "get" why my tuner wont tune Ethanol blends without a full system. Liability. Its a big thing Im sure, and they must assume 95% of the people they get tune requests from don't know what the hell they are doing. And that most just know barely enough to load the tune. Most wont monitor their AFR during a run. So a full return system with ID 1050x's as a start point covers their whole ass, if you will.

As for the E54, theres a flex fuel station a few miles down the road from my house and one a mile down the road from work. While its not at every station like it seems to be back east, there is enough in the Phoenix Metro area that Id feel comfortable running it as a primary fuel. The cost of entry to get into that fuel, at least with my current tuner, is too much.

Hell upgraded 300m pumps, JMS 21v booster, Fore rails and ID 1050x's should be able to handle E54 just fine if my math works and the Stoich of E54 really is around 13:1.

For the record, Im certainly not trying to trash my tuner. Its their policy and I completely understand why they would need to have something like that in place. I respect their decision, even though it doesn't seem to make sense from an E54 standpoint.

Ill put out some feelers to other tuners to see what their opinion is. Not trying to "shop" for a tuner to agree with me... I just think a full system with 1050x's is about as conservative as it gets.

 

[Zemedici]

That's kinda of the problem. At this point I cant really justify $4-5k for a stand alone fuel system and injectors for E54. At least not all at once, specially if the Stoich of E54 is 13 instead of 14.0 for E10 Pump gas.

I honestly "get" why my tuner wont tune Ethanol blends without a full system. Liability. Its a big thing Im sure, and they must assume 95% of the people they get tune requests from don't know what the hell they are doing. And that most just know barely enough to load the tune. Most wont monitor their AFR during a run. So a full return system with ID 1050x's as a start point covers their whole ass, if you will.

As for the E54, theres a flex fuel station a few miles down the road from my house and one a mile down the road from work. While its not at every station like it seems to be back east, there is enough in the Phoenix Metro area that Id feel comfortable running it as a primary fuel. The cost of entry to get into that fuel, at least with my current tuner, is too much.

Hell upgraded 300m pumps, JMS 21v booster, Fore rails and ID 1050x's should be able to handle E54 just fine if my math works and the Stoich of E54 really is around 13:1.

For the record, Im certainly not trying to trash my tuner. Its their policy and I completely understand why they would need to have something like that in place. I respect their decision, even though it doesn't seem to make sense from an E54 standpoint.

Ill put out some feelers to other tuners to see what their opinion is. Not trying to "shop" for a tuner to agree with me... I just think a full system with 1050x's is about as conservative as it gets.

broham

55 Gallon of the good stuff. E85. Directly from a distributor like Proboat (here in Atlanta) or VP Racing's X85, so its regulated. That way you (and your tuner) know its quality fuel, and you'll both be happy. Its a weekend car, so no biggie if the fuel sits in it for a bit of time. Obviously not months, but a couple weeks wont hurt anything.

That make sense?

 

[9397SVTs]

Any updates? Did you upgrade or are you just occasionally using race gas?

 

[MG0h3]

How the hell is the system 4-5k? Mine was like 1200..car came with injectors so those were about 1k.

 

[Zemedici]

How the hell is the system 4-5k? Mine was like 1200..car came with injectors so those were about 1k.

no one makes a 'budget' return system for the later cars like the 03-04 cars, that I'm aware of.

So 2000-2500 for fuel system
1000-1800 for injectors (1050 vs 1300 / 1800)
Install
Tuning

Easily reaches 4-5k all said and done.

 

[MG0h3]

no one makes a 'budget' return system for the later cars like the 03-04 cars, that I'm aware of.

So 2000-2500 for fuel system
1000-1800 for injectors (1050 vs 1300 / 1800)
Install
Tuning

Easily reaches 4-5k all said and done.

ah Ok. Mine is all FORE through Malcolm. Didn't account for install costs.

I couldn't afford this hobby if someone else was doing the work!

 

[Zemedici]

ah Ok. Mine is all FORE through Malcolm. Didn't account for install costs.

I couldn't afford this hobby if someone else was doing the work!

expensive hobby for sure. Especially for a guy like me - that's gotta be IN the scene, but doesn't have time to wrench! hahahaha only 2 hobbies that hit the wallet harder! Boats and planes!

 

[blownstang4.6]

Did you talk with any other tuners?

 

[RedVenom48]

nah, I gave up on E54. Was told by Lund that E54 in AZ is not much better than 93 as far as they are concerned, even with a full return system and ID1300x's.

I have started to acquire engine parts and will go return, but to run 100 octane we have on the pumps here. I may get crafty and see if I can find the distillery that makes the ethanol for pump gas and see if they will sell me denatured ethanol, then I can blend my own.

 

[Klaus]

nah, I gave up on E54. Was told by Lund that E54 in AZ is not much better than 93 as far as they are concerned, even with a full return system and ID1300x's.

I have started to acquire engine parts and will go return, but to run 100 octane we have on the pumps here. I may get crafty and see if I can find the distillery that makes the ethanol for pump gas and see if they will sell me denatured ethanol, then I can blend my own.

Given your goals and build you are going to need more injector regardless. 1050 minimum and 1300s if you are going to run a blend. I have some like new 1050s PM me if you are interested. Also think about meth. I am not sure I would tune meth with 91 but I think it would be OK with 93.

 

[RFH]

the octane of ethanol blends peak at about 50% so E50 should have the same octane as E85 so it still makes sense to run it. It will still give a good performance boost and shouldnt need as much of a fuel system to deliver it. Your stock system may even be able to handle it.
E50 needs about 16% more fuel flow than gasoline for the same power.

 

[RedVenom48]

the octane of ethanol blends peak at about 50% so E50 should have the same octane as E85 so it still makes sense to run it. It will still give a good performance boost and shouldnt need as much of a fuel system to deliver it. Your stock system may even be able to handle it.
E50 needs about 16% more fuel flow than gasoline for the same power.

I believe you, Ive seen the charts. My tuner just refuses to tune and states that Arizona E54 is, essentially, shit. Ethanol is Ethanol of course, but they just dont want to deal with it. At least thats what they have told me in so many words.

..... I have considered finding another opinion from a different tuner. Maybe a local shop that does tuning too. Or mix E54 with a few gallons of E98 and some BOOSTANE on top for good measure lol.