How far would 60lb injectors get me on E85?

[Av3ng3d]

I have an appointment to get my terminator tuned this weekend.
It just crossed my mind that I have an e85 station nearby so switching over from 93 may be a viable option IF my setup will support it.
The car is on a posi port Eaton with port matched plenum and ported bbk throttle body, 60lb injectors, KB 40amp BAP with Lethal performance FPDM rewire kit. Stock pumps, lines, and rails. 2.93/6lb pulley combo. I would like to see the car make around 540-550whp. From what I've researched it will likely require e85, but would my fuel setup be enough on e85 as it stands?

 

[Brutal Metal]

your setup has enough to support 540. The tuner will check the logs to see how your duty cycle looks. If you wanna stay returnless to easiest option for you would be changing out the oem pumps and new better fuel hat. I'm sure you'll get plenty of replies saying rip all the returnless stuff out and go return.

 

[SVTdreamin04]

All depends on how much boost you're making. How much?


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[JeremyH]

Like mentioned, factors like boost level and base pressure will play a big role in how far the injectors will get you. Maxing out injectors is a bigger concern then running out of pump imo, since when they are static flow varies more and you could be lean on a few cylinders even though overall afr may look ok beacuse pressure is still good. Most injectors go static around 90%, for safety when you pick an injector using a calculator I would not use more than 80-85% for max duty cycle to allow room for load changes and not going static. This is also where static and dynamic flow matching of your set of injector becomes a much bigger deal.

There is a pretty easy to remember rough rule of thumb though to what hp an injector size can support safely at oem pressure on pump gas and e85.
Gas is size(lbs) times 10 plus 100 equlas hp
E85 is size(lbs) times 10 minus 100 equals power.
So for 60lb's x 10 = 600 - 100 = 500hp e85, 600 + 100 = 700hp gas. 80's would be 700hp on e85, 95's would be 850hp on e85 etc.

And in the end default to addage that you can never have enough fuel. If you think your close on a certain size injector, go a size bigger. So if you think you can just get to the power you want with 60s, get 80s, if you think 80s will just cut it get 95's, if you think 95's will just cut it get 1300cc. I have maxxed both 80s and then 95's with e85 during my journey to more power.

 

[V6&V8SHO]

rip all the returnless stuff out and go return

 

[Av3ng3d]

Boost should be roughly 17-18psi with my pulley setup.
I ran the idea by my tuner (also let him know what my fuel setup is) and he told me to bring up a container of E85. He's going to tune it for 93 first and then with the E85. I'm not sure what to expect as 60lb'ers sound like they may be on the edge of getting me where I want the car to be power-wise from the little info I am finding.
My tuning appointment is tomorrow so it's a bit late to switch to larger injectors or go with a return setup unfortunately. Looking back on it now I would have just gotten the 80lb injectors had I knew e85 was an option.
I appreciate everyone's insight and I'll report back with the results tomorrow. I don't think 500whp will be an issue, but 540-550 may be a stretch.
Fingers are crossed lol.

 

[GodStang]

I am well over 700rw on E85 and 80s on Stock fuel pressure but only been this way for about 6 years. I had plenty of room left in my fuel system if my car could of made more power.

Like mentioned, factors like boost level and base pressure will play a big role in how far the injectors will get you. Maxing out injectors is a bigger concern then running out of pump imo, since when they are static flow varies more and you could be lean on a few cylinders even though overall afr may look ok beacuse pressure is still good. Most injectors go static around 90%, for safety when you pick an injector using a calculator I would not use more than 80-85% for max duty cycle to allow room for load changes and not going static. This is also where static and dynamic flow matching of your set of injector becomes a much bigger deal.

There is a pretty easy to remember rough rule of thumb though to what hp an injector size can support safely at oem pressure on pump gas and e85.
Gas is size(lbs) times 10 plus 100 equlas hp
E85 is size(lbs) times 10 minus 100 equals power.
So for 60lb's x 10 = 600 - 100 = 500hp e85, 600 + 100 = 700hp gas. 80's would be 700hp on e85, 95's would be 850hp on e85 etc.

And in the end default to addage that you can never have enough fuel. If you think your close on a certain size injector, go a size bigger. So if you think you can just get to the power you want with 60s, get 80s, if you think 80s will just cut it get 95's, if you think 95's will just cut it get 1300cc. I have maxxed both 80s and then 95's with e85 during my journey to more power.

 

[Brutal Metal]

Like mentioned, factors like boost level and base pressure will play a big role in how far the injectors will get you. Maxing out injectors is a bigger concern then running out of pump imo, since when they are static flow varies more and you could be lean on a few cylinders even though overall afr may look ok beacuse pressure is still good. Most injectors go static around 90%, for safety when you pick an injector using a calculator I would not use more than 80-85% for max duty cycle to allow room for load changes and not going static. This is also where static and dynamic flow matching of your set of injector becomes a much bigger deal.

There is a pretty easy to remember rough rule of thumb though to what hp an injector size can support safely at oem pressure on pump gas and e85.
Gas is size(lbs) times 10 plus 100 equlas hp
E85 is size(lbs) times 10 minus 100 equals power.
So for 60lb's x 10 = 600 - 100 = 500hp e85, 600 + 100 = 700hp gas. 80's would be 700hp on e85, 95's would be 850hp on e85 etc.

And in the end default to addage that you can never have enough fuel. If you think your close on a certain size injector, go a size bigger. So if you think you can just get to the power you want with 60s, get 80s, if you think 80s will just cut it get 95's, if you think 95's will just cut it get 1300cc. I have maxxed both 80s and then 95's with e85 during my journey to more power.

Good advice man BUT he's got a ported eaton here we're not talking Big Twin Turbo's...

 

[Av3ng3d]

I said I would report back with results so here they are. My upper pulley may be smaller than what I measured. Boost was just shy of 20psi. I was expecting more like 17psi but unfortunately that wasn't the case.
Will cold air cause a raise in boost in a super charged application?
In my experience with turbo cars colder air does increase boost pressure normally.

I'm out of injector/pump on e85 at 538hp/584tq. Pretty consistent with one of the replies above.
Holy torque though, yikes! Time for some fuel upgrades and maybe a smaller upper to get that ported Eaton back into its efficiency range.

 

[MG0h3]

Damn. Never seen an Eaton make that. You got cats still? Either way, great numbers. Bet that thing rips

Yes, colder air is denser so more boost but it’s not a major difference. I think it’s around 5% or so summer vs winter but lots of variables.

Since you’re already headed a certain direction, just do it once when you’re ready. Good return style with more pump and injector than you think you need.


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[SVTdreamin04]

Boost should be roughly 17-18psi with my pulley setup.
I ran the idea by my tuner (also let him know what my fuel setup is) and he told me to bring up a container of E85. He's going to tune it for 93 first and then with the E85. I'm not sure what to expect as 60lb'ers sound like they may be on the edge of getting me where I want the car to be power-wise from the little info I am finding.
My tuning appointment is tomorrow so it's a bit late to switch to larger injectors or go with a return setup unfortunately. Looking back on it now I would have just gotten the 80lb injectors had I knew e85 was an option.
I appreciate everyone's insight and I'll report back with the results tomorrow. I don't think 500whp will be an issue, but 540-550 may be a stretch.
Fingers are crossed lol.

Post your results. It would be nice to know what your injector duty cycle will be at.


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[Av3ng3d]

Posted graph above (disregard wideband reading in that pull because it cut out and he had switch sensors after that pull)
Injector duty is at 100% at those numbers so I most definitely need to upgrade. He suggested I upgrade the fuel pumps also. At that point I'm wondering, do I just go return style at that point if I'm going to go through the trouble of changing pumps?

 

[SVTdreamin04]

Posted graph above (disregard wideband reading in that pull because it cut out and he had switch sensors after that pull)
Injector duty is at 100% at those numbers so I most definitely need to upgrade. He suggested I upgrade the fuel pumps also. At that point I'm wondering, do I just go return style at that point if I'm going to go through the trouble of changing pumps?

Yes, set it up deadhead return. You will be glad you did.


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[JeremyH]

Posted graph above (disregard wideband reading in that pull because it cut out and he had switch sensors after that pull)
Injector duty is at 100% at those numbers so I most definitely need to upgrade. He suggested I upgrade the fuel pumps also. At that point I'm wondering, do I just go return style at that point if I'm going to go through the trouble of changing pumps?

There in lies the potential problem regardless of power. Injectors are static in that last 90-100% range (order to pulse comes before previsouly pulse closes so injector is basicly staying open causing increased flow variance from loss of pulse timing control, ie varaince in tolerances of the spray tip nozzle and valve clearances) The real problem here is overall air/fuel ratio from all cylinders in the bank or together can look fine and safe, but your at the mercy of your 8 injectors static flow variance, a set of 8 injectors nominally has 5-6% static varaince from the manufacturer, can be more.

I see static highs and lows all the time on my flow bench when testing injectors. What it boils down to is some cylinders are running leaner and some are richer than others, you might be ok, you might be not, again not worth the risk imo. This happened to my buddies setup stroker setup, pushes more power on the injectors than should have been, afr looked good on the dyno and then couple smacks on the street with real load and he melted holes in 2 pistons.

When I flowmatch sets of 8 I order 5-6 sets or more. I static flow test them and look for varaince and then split them out into groups that match within 1%. Then from those groups I do dynamic testing and run them though the rpm range 3 times and then record flow. From those static matched groups I then match up sets of 8 that are within 1% varaince for dynamic flow through the rpm range. When you buy a set of flowmatched injectors this is what your getting to ensure all cylinders are running the same through out the operation range.

Something to keep in mind as you push more power and push injectors. Good thing is most companies do his matching on their custom injectors now, but it does drive up price.

As far as pumps at your level its still easily handled in returnless so its your call. Most common upgrade is dropping 2 of the aftermarket ford gt sueprcar pumps in the hat. Those with your bap and wire upgrade is plenty of fuel on that blower.