Got the turbo bug, Need advice coming from TVS 2.3

[digital911]

OK so I have the turbo bug. I am very interested in moving over to one.

Here is a brief summary of what I have now-> 04 SVT Cobra convertible 60k miles, factory long block, TVS 2.3 w/ VMP GT500 TB, return fuel 60# injector, dual 255lph pumps, head cooling mod, killer chiller, factory exhaust manifold, mac pro chamber offroad mid pipe, borla ATAK mufflers and suspension work. Car puts down about 630 whp @ 18psi on 93 octane.

Can someone who's successfully been down the path of coming from supercharger to turbo tell me what I should do?

Here are some basic questions I have:

1) Dual or single turbo?
2) Are internal engine mods, such as new cams recommended when moving to turbo?
3) What boost level can the factory long block support on a turbo setup on pump 93? (I have no access to reliable E85 here) What power does this typically yield?

4) How are IAT2's handled on turbo? Are they just as important as a supercharged setup? Do I keep the intercooler and heat exchanger on turbo setup? Will my killer chiller continue to function as is? Or do I not need it, or is there something better?

5) Most importantly, what is the average cost to move over to a turbo or twin turbo setup?

6) Are there any turbo kits on the internet that I should be looking at? If so can you provide a name of the kit or a link? If not, what parts should I be looking for?

7) any other important questions I'm not thinking of please do tell.

thanks

 

[nxhappy]

gonna be big money for sure. I'd go twin turbo, 67mm, built block and supporting fuel ...

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

I'll do my best to answer your questions, then give my advice. I'm at low battery so it'll probably be a post now, and a following post once I can charge up.

1. Either will be great for a street car. Either can make 1000whp relatively smoothly. Single 76-80 with an 82-85mm exducer, or twin 58/58-61's would fit a stock 4.6 terminator long block well. Much less expensive to go single, twins seem to get more bragging rights and can spool up a little quicker.
2. The stock blower cams in our cars aren't overly aggressive, a nice inexpensive replacement are 98 cobra cams. Custom turbo grinds matched to boost range and desired rpm will make a 30-75+whp difference and then some if you go over 20psi. If it's under 15psi, proper cams degreed well with nice head work are still worth at least 25-40whp. And then some. Pricy work though, can easily go into the $3-5k range...
3. Air counts is more what you mean IMO. I'll spare the comparison of what boost is and assume you mean what boost level (relative to a properly sized turbo system for our cars) will be possible on pump gas. With factory compression, 15psi is very safe, and very potent. 18-19psi can be done, but you'll be well into the 750whp range and nearing 800whp to be honest. And as I'm guessing you know, a 500whp turbo cobra feels like a 600whp sc cobra... You'll probably find yourself doing what I do and cruising around on the lowest boost setting your boost controller allows. It's surprising how much punch a turbo car has even on 5-10psi...
4. Iat's are crucial to making power. And properly done, a turbo car will be epic for nice iat's. I did some pulls the other night and my iat's dropped from 50* to 34* after the pulls. I'm on pump gas but run a dual in dual out intercooler with custom plumbing and an oil cooler. To say it mildly, it's easier to get low iat's with a turbo setup if you size things well and put in the time to learn and understand how to spec a build. The killer chiller can be modified to fit a turbo application, it requires different pieces though. They have kits for turbo cars on their website. They build chillers for many vehicles. I don't think reusing the heat exchanger you have from your blower setup would be ideal. You'd need to weld in and out ports, etc. better to just sell it and buy a proper unit. Spec it to what you'll need, going to big just slows airflow and reduces velocity, with no cooling gain.

5. Plan on $15k. For a seasoned and versed turbo wiz, it can be as low as $5k or less with used pieces, maybe even $3k or less. For a first time, plan $15k. If you end up under $10k, you did excellent.

7. Quite a few, I'll touch on them when my phone is charged.

 

[lilmarauder]

Get all your money out of your savings. You will need it.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[brady_f]

Get all your money out of your savings. You will need it.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

My thoughts exactly....

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

A nice option to look at if you like these cars in general but aren't sentimentally attached to your particular cobra is to sell it and buy a well sorted turbo car.

You can possibly sell your car for $17-23k depending on variables, and buy a clean well sorted turbo cobra for $20~25k. I have t checked the market in years so don't quote me, but that's a rough guess where they might still be, if not cheaper.

It will cost far more than $5-7k to properly setup a turbo car. You can sell blower parts easily enough to offset that but the smart money is in buying a finished turbo car.

That all said, hellion kits (just turbo, not compound) are very straightforward and have good designs to them for street and track applications. They aren't going to be as optimized as a one off custom or as interesting but they work great and have very few issues worthy of correction. A hellion kit for $8k new or about $5k used is very complete.

•you have fuel mods now so you can sell the or delete what is extra (the kit comes with some fuel pieces depending how it's specced)
•you'll need (want*, much easier) a tubular K to fit quickly. I like maximum Motorsports but it's the pricier one of the lot. Rides great/handles excellent though.
•tuning is something you'll want to know you can competently have handled, it's not as easy as bolt on tuning or SC tuning. Make sure you have good local talent to tune it.
•sound will change dramatically. And possibly for the worse if you run a halfway quiet exhaust now. You'll probably want to shell for an e-cutout system if you find it too quiet... I literally just run resonators. No mufflers, or cats. I have 3" plumbing and it's still eerily quiet, I'll link some vids.
•time. Plan on needing a solid amount of quality time to install the setup or have it done. An experienced mechanic needs a good 3-5 days committed to the install, and a traditional shop could need a month or two. It's boarders on lathargic... If you have good hands, read up and get versed, no part of the install is decidedly complicated, but it requires common sense like lining up positions for easy removal/maintenance regarding bolts and clamp head locations, plumbing and ducting flow/efficiency, overall airflow and cooling properties, etc. A single is far easier to plumb. Less headaches, easier to maintain. Less heat typically.
•you'll want an electronic boost controller, nice set of gauges, n-gauges, sct xcal4, or so on to monitor:
-digital coolant temp measured in line
-oil pressure
-oil temp
-IAT's
-fuel pressure
-boost
-etc.
It can easily reach $1500-2k in gauges, sct xcal, boost controller, etc.
•spring for the cooling and maintenance options. Err on the side of caution. Better to run a slightly bigger exducer and 3" full exhaust (dual) 4"+ (single until it meets the X) so as to reduce pressure and requisite heat. Exhaust/hotside sizing alone can drop exhaust gas temps by 3-500*. Wrapping or coating the exhaust and hotside is a great option. If you have a return fuel system, coat or wrap the exhaust. It will keep underbody temps far cooler, especially important near the gas tank and return lines. Hot fuel vapor locks. That doesn't help to to be able to ignite, which is a scenario that detonates engines easily enough. Ask how I know...

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Can't upload video easily. Sorry.

 

[Bdubbs]

I've pondered this for a while. But spending 10-15k just doesn't make it go past a thought. Plus I'd want a auto if I went turbo.

 

[nxhappy]

at least 10k in parts, then you have to worry about fuel system, then you have to get a tuner that knows their shit....all said and done it's 15-20k to do it RIGHT

 

[Nightmare302]

Don't forget you can get a good chunk of change for your old SC parts. The big difference is the required suspension. Cheaping out on coil overs and K-member will leave you hating your car.

I ran a hellion kit with the MM suspension on a stock longblock. It was honestly the most fun car I've ever owned. Sure my car is faster now but having the 6 speed and making 600-650rwhp safely and never worrying about the car starting was far and away the most fun ever.

My twin screw car always felt violent. Driving it was a chore, getting on it always made me feel like it was trying to murder me and leave me in a ditch. The turbo car felt refined and just pulled and pulled.

My suggestion, have a valve job done on your stock heads (inspect seats). Put some 98 Cobra cams in and degree them. (good for 20-40rwhp on a turbo setup). Run a Mach/Cobra intake (you will need alt, bracket, throttle cable and so on), a quality front mount intercooler, go with team z or MM suspension (decide if you want drag or street). The MM kit will only fit a custom kit or the hellion kits (you can find them used from time to time). Run a SINGLE turbo, it's simpler, cheaper and performs just as well when sized correctly and using a twin scroll housing. Your fuel system on pump will be fine.

You will probably run 4-5k on top of selling off your old parts.

 

[xxjaymanzxx]

Are the team z k members not good for the street?

 

[Nightmare302]

Are the team z k members not good for the street?

I wouldn't say "bad" but they are drag race K-members. They have a road race K as well. I'd prefer MM on a street daily car. I use Team Z on my drag car.

 

[Givens]

I've thought about this many of times, I have a Steeda K member I never have installed. I just cant decide if I want to spend the money, time, and more importantly putting a cage in my car. I have a feeling it would be turbo, auto, SRA car when I was done.

 

[xxjaymanzxx]

I wouldn't say "bad" but they are drag race K-members. They have a road race K as well. I'd prefer MM on a street daily car. I use Team Z on my drag car.

I hear ya I really like the team z but it's not a track car maybe MM is the way to go for street/strip

I've thought about this many of times, I have a Steeda K member I never have installed. I just cant decide if I want to spend the money, time, and more importantly putting a cage in my car. I have a feeling it would be turbo, auto, SRA car when I was done.

I've thought about this many of times, I have a Steeda K member I never have installed. I just cant decide if I want to spend the money, time, and more importantly putting a cage in my car. I have a feeling it would be turbo, auto, SRA car when I was done.

exactly what I was thinking

 

[digital911]

I'll do my best to answer your questions, then give my advice. I'm at low battery so it'll probably be a post now, and a following post once I can charge up.

1. Either will be great for a street car. Either can make 1000whp relatively smoothly. Single 76-80 with an 82-85mm exducer, or twin 58/58-61's would fit a stock 4.6 terminator long block well. Much less expensive to go single, twins seem to get more bragging rights and can spool up a little quicker.
2. The stock blower cams in our cars aren't overly aggressive, a nice inexpensive replacement are 98 cobra cams. Custom turbo grinds matched to boost range and desired rpm will make a 30-75+whp difference and then some if you go over 20psi. If it's under 15psi, proper cams degreed well with nice head work are still worth at least 25-40whp. And then some. Pricy work though, can easily go into the $3-5k range...
3. Air counts is more what you mean IMO. I'll spare the comparison of what boost is and assume you mean what boost level (relative to a properly sized turbo system for our cars) will be possible on pump gas. With factory compression, 15psi is very safe, and very potent. 18-19psi can be done, but you'll be well into the 750whp range and nearing 800whp to be honest. And as I'm guessing you know, a 500whp turbo cobra feels like a 600whp sc cobra... You'll probably find yourself doing what I do and cruising around on the lowest boost setting your boost controller allows. It's surprising how much punch a turbo car has even on 5-10psi...
4. Iat's are crucial to making power. And properly done, a turbo car will be epic for nice iat's. I did some pulls the other night and my iat's dropped from 50* to 34* after the pulls. I'm on pump gas but run a dual in dual out intercooler with custom plumbing and an oil cooler. To say it mildly, it's easier to get low iat's with a turbo setup if you size things well and put in the time to learn and understand how to spec a build. The killer chiller can be modified to fit a turbo application, it requires different pieces though. They have kits for turbo cars on their website. They build chillers for many vehicles. I don't think reusing the heat exchanger you have from your blower setup would be ideal. You'd need to weld in and out ports, etc. better to just sell it and buy a proper unit. Spec it to what you'll need, going to big just slows airflow and reduces velocity, with no cooling gain.

5. Plan on $15k. For a seasoned and versed turbo wiz, it can be as low as $5k or less with used pieces, maybe even $3k or less. For a first time, plan $15k. If you end up under $10k, you did excellent.

7. Quite a few, I'll touch on them when my phone is charged.

For question 3, yes I am asking how much boost can the factory long block handle on a turbo setup on 93 octane pump gas. I am running 18.5PSI w/ a TVS 2.3 with no issues, so I was assuming I would be able to run even higher boost with a turbo setup on the same 93 pump gas, since there is less resistance in turbo setup, and since a turbo runs cooler from what I understand (when I say cooler I mean intake charge temps or IAT2s).

15k sounds high for me. I was hoping to do it for half of that.

What about something like this:

http://www.on3performance.com/shop/1996-04-mustang-cobra-4v-twin-turbo-system/

also do you have a list of tuners that know what they're doing for a turbo setup cobra?

BTW, do you have any videos of your setup?

 

[digital911]

A nice option to look at if you like these cars in general but aren't sentimentally attached to your particular cobra is to sell it and buy a well sorted turbo car.

You can possibly sell your car for $17-23k depending on variables, and buy a clean well sorted turbo cobra for $20~25k. I have t checked the market in years so don't quote me, but that's a rough guess where they might still be, if not cheaper.

It will cost far more than $5-7k to properly setup a turbo car. You can sell blower parts easily enough to offset that but the smart money is in buying a finished turbo car.

That all said, hellion kits (just turbo, not compound) are very straightforward and have good designs to them for street and track applications. They aren't going to be as optimized as a one off custom or as interesting but they work great and have very few issues worthy of correction. A hellion kit for $8k new or about $5k used is very complete.

•you have fuel mods now so you can sell the or delete what is extra (the kit comes with some fuel pieces depending how it's specced)
•you'll need (want*, much easier) a tubular K to fit quickly. I like maximum Motorsports but it's the pricier one of the lot. Rides great/handles excellent though.
•tuning is something you'll want to know you can competently have handled, it's not as easy as bolt on tuning or SC tuning. Make sure you have good local talent to tune it.
•sound will change dramatically. And possibly for the worse if you run a halfway quiet exhaust now. You'll probably want to shell for an e-cutout system if you find it too quiet... I literally just run resonators. No mufflers, or cats. I have 3" plumbing and it's still eerily quiet, I'll link some vids.
•time. Plan on needing a solid amount of quality time to install the setup or have it done. An experienced mechanic needs a good 3-5 days committed to the install, and a traditional shop could need a month or two. It's boarders on lathargic... If you have good hands, read up and get versed, no part of the install is decidedly complicated, but it requires common sense like lining up positions for easy removal/maintenance regarding bolts and clamp head locations, plumbing and ducting flow/efficiency, overall airflow and cooling properties, etc. A single is far easier to plumb. Less headaches, easier to maintain. Less heat typically.
•you'll want an electronic boost controller, nice set of gauges, n-gauges, sct xcal4, or so on to monitor:
-digital coolant temp measured in line
-oil pressure
-oil temp
-IAT's
-fuel pressure
-boost
-etc.
It can easily reach $1500-2k in gauges, sct xcal, boost controller, etc.
•spring for the cooling and maintenance options. Err on the side of caution. Better to run a slightly bigger exducer and 3" full exhaust (dual) 4"+ (single until it meets the X) so as to reduce pressure and requisite heat. Exhaust/hotside sizing alone can drop exhaust gas temps by 3-500*. Wrapping or coating the exhaust and hotside is a great option. If you have a return fuel system, coat or wrap the exhaust. It will keep underbody temps far cooler, especially important near the gas tank and return lines. Hot fuel vapor locks. That doesn't help to to be able to ignite, which is a scenario that detonates engines easily enough. Ask how I know...

Lots of excellent points. Regarding exaust I currently have factory exhaust manifold going to an offroad mac pro chamber then to borla ATAK's, so it doesn't get much louder than that, unless I went aftermarket headers.

I really like the way the turbo in the grill looks and then the exhaust ported out each side of the front fenders. How does this sound and is this practice for a daily driver?

 

[digital911]

I've pondered this for a while. But spending 10-15k just doesn't make it go past a thought. Plus I'd want a auto if I went turbo.

why would you prefer an auto for turbo Brady?

 

[digital911]

at least 10k in parts, then you have to worry about fuel system, then you have to get a tuner that knows their shit....all said and done it's 15-20k to do it RIGHT

anyone on the gulf coast that you know that knows how to do it right?

 

[digital911]

Don't forget you can get a good chunk of change for your old SC parts. The big difference is the required suspension. Cheaping out on coil overs and K-member will leave you hating your car.

I ran a hellion kit with the MM suspension on a stock longblock. It was honestly the most fun car I've ever owned. Sure my car is faster now but having the 6 speed and making 600-650rwhp safely and never worrying about the car starting was far and away the most fun ever.

My twin screw car always felt violent. Driving it was a chore, getting on it always made me feel like it was trying to murder me and leave me in a ditch. The turbo car felt refined and just pulled and pulled.

My suggestion, have a valve job done on your stock heads (inspect seats). Put some 98 Cobra cams in and degree them. (good for 20-40rwhp on a turbo setup). Run a Mach/Cobra intake (you will need alt, bracket, throttle cable and so on), a quality front mount intercooler, go with team z or MM suspension (decide if you want drag or street). The MM kit will only fit a custom kit or the hellion kits (you can find them used from time to time). Run a SINGLE turbo, it's simpler, cheaper and performs just as well when sized correctly and using a twin scroll housing. Your fuel system on pump will be fine.

You will probably run 4-5k on top of selling off your old parts.

so you're saying parts alone would be 4-5k minus the parts I can sell off the supercharger setup? If so that's not too bad. I think it's going to come down to finding a person that really knows that they are doing tuning the car that is within reasonable distance to where I live which is southeast Louisiana.

 

[Nightmare302]

For question 3, yes I am asking how much boost can the factory long block handle on a turbo setup on 93 octane pump gas. I am running 18.5PSI w/ a TVS 2.3 with no issues, so I was assuming I would be able to run even higher boost with a turbo setup on the same 93 pump gas, since there is less resistance in turbo setup, and since a turbo runs cooler from what I understand (when I say cooler I mean intake charge temps or IAT2s).

15k sounds high for me. I was hoping to do it for half of that.

What about something like this:

http://www.on3performance.com/shop/1996-04-mustang-cobra-4v-twin-turbo-system/

also do you have a list of tuners that know what they're doing for a turbo setup cobra?

BTW, do you have any videos of your setup?

Don't use on3 unless you want to re-do all the clamps and replace the BOV Wastegate and turbo. Which will end up being just as much. Going turbo or building anything is expensive.

18 psi is a lot on a factory motor for pump gas. You must have very little timing.

Lots of excellent points. Regarding exaust I currently have factory exhaust manifold going to an offroad mac pro chamber then to borla ATAK's, so it doesn't get much louder than that, unless I went aftermarket headers.

I really like the way the turbo in the grill looks and then the exhaust ported out each side of the front fenders. How does this sound and is this practice for a daily driver?

First, that would be a totally custom kit. You'd have to move your radiator, over flow, a/c, power steering, and a load of other things to get grill mount turbo.

Second, it's not very streetable as you need filters on the turbos.

why would you prefer an auto for turbo Brady?

You prefer auto because it is much much much faster as an auto. You don't lose boost between shifts in an auto makes the car much more fun to drive.

so you're saying parts alone would be 4-5k minus the parts I can sell off the supercharger setup? If so that's not too bad. I think it's going to come down to finding a person that really knows that they are doing tuning the car that is within reasonable distance to where I live which is southeast Louisiana.

After selling ALL of your stuff you'd be in for 5-7k by my estimate for a pretty base setup.