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SVTPerformance's Chain of Restaurants
The Distillery
Fuel Filter E85?
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<blockquote data-quote="ZOSO" data-source="post: 10648479" data-attributes="member: 17386"><p><s></s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>I have done more research then you could imagine. I am not worried one bit of anything failing. When I did switch to E85 I changed the filter a few times right off the bat to get all the crap out of the tank. I figure if i were to have a problem it would have shown up by now. When I switched no one else had. I was one of the first domestic guys around here to try it. I do check the componets for any signs of problems.</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>So in your opinion what is the "Right" fuel system? How are my components not rated for my flow? with duty cycles in the 80's i dont need anymore flow. </s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>I do pull injectors to clean them regularly as they do build up some deposits on the outlet. It is almost like tar. It has been known to happen with burning E85. It has to do with the grounding of the fuel system. Some cars get it more than others. Bet that is something a lot of guys didn't know about it. Just a by-product of running E85. These are not my pics. But I do get a very little buildup after running 5-10k miles.</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>[ATTACH=full]182267[/ATTACH]</s></p><p><s>[ATTACH=full]182268[/ATTACH]</s></p><p><s>[ATTACH=full]182269[/ATTACH]</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>Alright, I finished my analysis of this stuff, and my finding is very unexpected. I think it will probably surprise everyone else as well. This doesn't appear to be forming because ethanol is "such a good solvent" but because ethanol is a poor solvent. I suppose it should have been obvious when others said that it "washes right off with gasoline". Why would something that ethanol is selectively dissolving wash off with gasoline? If this were something in rubber or from our fuel tanks, wouldn't that imply that gasoline would dissolve it even more readily than E85? </s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>"Alright, so what is this stuff? It is a appears to be a very large petroleum based hydrocarbon, similar to Vaseline. There isn't a single hetero-atom in the molecule (ie, the entire molecule is comprised of hydrogens and carbons), but the molecule is very large. It is also completely aliphatic (ie, only single bonds in the structure - no double or triple bonds). Where did it come from? I can only think of two different sources it could be coming from. It is either something that is mixed in with the rubber hoses that is meant to dissolve away in the gasoline, or it is a trace impurity in the 15% gasoline that is in E85 that wasn't separated during the fractional distillation process. Because it is such a large molecule, it wouldn't be very soluble in ethanol and could easily crash out of solution at the injector."</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>"I talked to a chemist friend of mine.</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>He thinks it might be electrolysis pulling the free oxygen molecules off the HC chains in the ethanol and then doing some funky carbon double bonding. Octane molecules have a higher ionization energy and wouldn't be susceptible to this happening.</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>He said that doing a better job grounding the fuel system may mitigate this by removing any voltage potential from the fuel system.</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>Try grounding the lines, rail, tank and individual injector bodies with a dedicated ground wire to the battery. See what happens with that.</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>This might explain why some cars have this worse than others. Varying levels of grounding in the fuel system." </s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>"</s></p><p><s>Gasoline is called a "polymer" of oil, meaning it has the same basic chemical makeup but a different number of molecules. Those basic molecules that become stacked to become "poly"mers are called "mono"mers. Monomers are the basic building blocks of polymers. One of the little functions or switches of hydrocarbon monomers is static. That's how you can make different polymers is through utilizing static. It's a natural phenomenon that can be controlled and has been extensively studied. When it occurs in an uncontrolled fashion in your fuel system, you get gunk wherever the grounding occurs. In this case, it looks like it's the metal injector tip.</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>That static phenomenon is not naturally controlled in E85 pump fuel. I'm very surprised someone posted this subject right out of the blue...</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RdZEfpe6hA"]YouTube - Oil itself causing sparks (hydrocarbon static)[/nomedia]</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>Here you can watch static in a crankcase. The positively charged oil is grounding out against the metal crankcase. They don't show it in the vid, but you get "pure hydrocarbon gunk" that way. It's basically like a hydrocarbon varnish, but wet in your case. I have never EVER seen it wet like this, especially in E85. That's probably one of the best technical finds ever on the internet about hydrocarbon gunk is these injectors. I can't thank you enough for putting this up. I'll get right on it . </s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>I honestly don't know if it caused THIS KIND of gunk on these injectors. But, the fact that those are metal bodied injectors makes me really really really think hard about this. Subaru injector bodies are plastic but with a metal cap. That Mitsu's steel bodied injector is sitting right in a steel fuel rail. Am I looking at that wrong? That's a steel-cased injector and not a steel capped injector like a Subaru. That's sitting in a metal fuel rail, too. Under high pressures there's something about this phenomenon being easier to trigger. I DON'T actually get it, but I do sort of understand it. The structure of that gunk being like a long chain hydrocarbon is because of static repeatedly being triggered at that point. The static discharge is "stacking" or "linking" hydrocarbon monomers where it is occurring, making a long chained polymer."</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>Just a tad of info for you.</s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s></s></p><p><s>E85 also has no ill affects on paper fuel filters. Yes over time they will break down but it's wise to change the filter on a regular basis with todays crap fuels.</s></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ZOSO, post: 10648479, member: 17386"] [s] I have done more research then you could imagine. I am not worried one bit of anything failing. When I did switch to E85 I changed the filter a few times right off the bat to get all the crap out of the tank. I figure if i were to have a problem it would have shown up by now. When I switched no one else had. I was one of the first domestic guys around here to try it. I do check the componets for any signs of problems. So in your opinion what is the "Right" fuel system? How are my components not rated for my flow? with duty cycles in the 80's i dont need anymore flow. I do pull injectors to clean them regularly as they do build up some deposits on the outlet. It is almost like tar. It has been known to happen with burning E85. It has to do with the grounding of the fuel system. Some cars get it more than others. Bet that is something a lot of guys didn't know about it. Just a by-product of running E85. These are not my pics. But I do get a very little buildup after running 5-10k miles. [ATTACH=full]182267[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]182268[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]182269[/ATTACH] Alright, I finished my analysis of this stuff, and my finding is very unexpected. I think it will probably surprise everyone else as well. This doesn't appear to be forming because ethanol is "such a good solvent" but because ethanol is a poor solvent. I suppose it should have been obvious when others said that it "washes right off with gasoline". Why would something that ethanol is selectively dissolving wash off with gasoline? If this were something in rubber or from our fuel tanks, wouldn't that imply that gasoline would dissolve it even more readily than E85? "Alright, so what is this stuff? It is a appears to be a very large petroleum based hydrocarbon, similar to Vaseline. There isn't a single hetero-atom in the molecule (ie, the entire molecule is comprised of hydrogens and carbons), but the molecule is very large. It is also completely aliphatic (ie, only single bonds in the structure - no double or triple bonds). Where did it come from? I can only think of two different sources it could be coming from. It is either something that is mixed in with the rubber hoses that is meant to dissolve away in the gasoline, or it is a trace impurity in the 15% gasoline that is in E85 that wasn't separated during the fractional distillation process. Because it is such a large molecule, it wouldn't be very soluble in ethanol and could easily crash out of solution at the injector." "I talked to a chemist friend of mine. He thinks it might be electrolysis pulling the free oxygen molecules off the HC chains in the ethanol and then doing some funky carbon double bonding. Octane molecules have a higher ionization energy and wouldn't be susceptible to this happening. He said that doing a better job grounding the fuel system may mitigate this by removing any voltage potential from the fuel system. Try grounding the lines, rail, tank and individual injector bodies with a dedicated ground wire to the battery. See what happens with that. This might explain why some cars have this worse than others. Varying levels of grounding in the fuel system." " Gasoline is called a "polymer" of oil, meaning it has the same basic chemical makeup but a different number of molecules. Those basic molecules that become stacked to become "poly"mers are called "mono"mers. Monomers are the basic building blocks of polymers. One of the little functions or switches of hydrocarbon monomers is static. That's how you can make different polymers is through utilizing static. It's a natural phenomenon that can be controlled and has been extensively studied. When it occurs in an uncontrolled fashion in your fuel system, you get gunk wherever the grounding occurs. In this case, it looks like it's the metal injector tip. That static phenomenon is not naturally controlled in E85 pump fuel. I'm very surprised someone posted this subject right out of the blue... [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RdZEfpe6hA"]YouTube - Oil itself causing sparks (hydrocarbon static)[/nomedia] Here you can watch static in a crankcase. The positively charged oil is grounding out against the metal crankcase. They don't show it in the vid, but you get "pure hydrocarbon gunk" that way. It's basically like a hydrocarbon varnish, but wet in your case. I have never EVER seen it wet like this, especially in E85. That's probably one of the best technical finds ever on the internet about hydrocarbon gunk is these injectors. I can't thank you enough for putting this up. I'll get right on it . I honestly don't know if it caused THIS KIND of gunk on these injectors. But, the fact that those are metal bodied injectors makes me really really really think hard about this. Subaru injector bodies are plastic but with a metal cap. That Mitsu's steel bodied injector is sitting right in a steel fuel rail. Am I looking at that wrong? That's a steel-cased injector and not a steel capped injector like a Subaru. That's sitting in a metal fuel rail, too. Under high pressures there's something about this phenomenon being easier to trigger. I DON'T actually get it, but I do sort of understand it. The structure of that gunk being like a long chain hydrocarbon is because of static repeatedly being triggered at that point. The static discharge is "stacking" or "linking" hydrocarbon monomers where it is occurring, making a long chained polymer." Just a tad of info for you. E85 also has no ill affects on paper fuel filters. Yes over time they will break down but it's wise to change the filter on a regular basis with todays crap fuels.[/s] [/QUOTE]
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