Encourage parents to consider brother intellect disorder...

ElscottHavoc

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This post is partially just to clear my mind and also partially perhaps looking for feedback and guidance. I suppose SVTP is not the leading resource information, but in addition to some of the people I've already discussed my thoughts with I thought just sharing what I'm struggling with here might be beneficial, too.

My brother is 5 years younger than me and for the longest time I just thought he was lazy and unmotivated. However, over the past few years, I've increasingly become aware of the idea he might have an intellectual disorder causing him to A.) Struggle socially, B.) Take longer to grasp new concepts, and C.) Lead a normal, fairly organized life. The problem is, whether he legitimately has a learning or intellectual disorder or not, I'm having trouble convincing my parents that it could very well be a possibility. I'm not sure if it is because he's the youngest child and they're too proud to admit that he's behind where he should be in life and that it isn't just a failure to launch, but a serious problem or perhaps they're just oblivious to the fact that this is more than just being lazy.

In middle school, he started developing the systems of hoarding - although my mom never really let it get too far out of control. About once a month she'd enter his room and just start filling up 3 or 4 trash bags with stuff to toss out. Even into his late teens and somewhat now, you'd walk into his room to find wood screws holding up posters, markers drawn onto the walls with random things like "this is ________ room".

His doorway at 17 years old had a sign he scribbled saying "keep out", he'd tape or screw things up to his walls and then later pull them down leaving a screw hanging out and parts of the poster behind - the were hundreds of holes, screws and scraps of paper on every wall.

One time for whatever reason, I found his secret box unlocked...and curiosity got the best of me as I knew many of his behaviors just weren't normal for 17-20 year olds. I was expecting - hoping - to finding porn or something normal and instead found just random pieces of paper, a for sale sign he had made of a motorcycle he didn't even own as though he was pretending he did, and also a bunch of poorly scanned photos of my ex-girflfriends. It seemed like he became attached to the oddest things and continued to play in a world of pretend even his late teens.

Meanwhile, he struggled through school and experienced immense bullying - later I learned he didn't really fit in with any crowd and sort of got bullied from every cliche imaginable with the exception of a few friends.. I kept wondering why he wasn't placed in alternative courses, but instead was forced through having never understood the prerequisite material. At the same time though, without my parents encouragement, I'm convinced his disorder is so mild that without living at home with him, the school couldn't have really known either. I mean, even here its hard to explain some of habits and behaviors that I took notice of that just didn't seem to be normal functioning behavior. Sure, I could perhaps writd off his 4 week old mildewing food under his bed as lazy, but just the things he collected and the things he considered to be decorative just didn't seem like something a higher functioning person would keep. A few years ago he got a $300 helmet as a gift along with a display case. Not only a week later he took the emblems off and messily scribbled his own designs on it...he was maybe 17 at the time - that just doesn't seem like something a 17 year old I've ever met would do.

Recently, he decided to apply for law enforcement academy. He passed all the physical exams, but ended up failing what I've determined was most likely the pyschological evaluation based upon the timeline other individuals I knew doing the same had suggested. I asked him if he had gotten interviewed and he said no, it was a multiple choice test but he didn't want to talk about it.

At 21 years old, he currently has a girlfriend his same age, and even she is oblivious of much of it since it is long distance, but he continues to socialize more comfortably with individuals much younger than him. I'm not in fear of him doing anything bad or sexual by any means (although I can imagine such assumptions are made), he just tends to find people in a previous generation easier to befriend - its like he's about 5 years behind, but I just want him to experience some modest success and lead a normal life on his own and I'm not sure that's possible without some sort of help - considering its not too late.

My wife works with people who have intellectual disorders and went to school for psychology. Even she was oblivious until I opened up about some of his behaviors inside the home and she agreed it appears he had a mild intellectual disorder.

Its like he's maturing at a much slower rate, as he's eventually started to become more confident socially, although now its more of adults in their 30s as he still struggles to socialize with 20 some things. He's also starting to become cleaner - although, that's partially due to my parents now renting a home due to a flood and so he knows he cannot destroy the place. So I think it'll take some time for him to grow and deal with some of then problems and eventually catch up, but I know he still troubles with learning and grasping basic concepts like math and that might be difficult to catch up on.

He's a wizard musically, and can learn a song by heart without even seeing the notes, but as far as core values necessary to hold a job he struggles. I just don't know where to go or how to convince my parents he needs help...they just baby him and enable him. However, I'm not sure as it is that he could function on his own either without a decent job and the ability to learn things normally.

Well, I guess that's what's on my mind.

Cliffs:
I think my brother is struggling with a mild learning/intellectual disorder that has continued to go undiagnosed and I don't think my parents are willing to accept the possibility of it being true - out of sight out of mind if you will. Now at 21, these problems have perpetuated into trouble holding a job and functioning normally.

Anyone ever struggle with something similar...
 
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Torch10th

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That's a tough situation for sure. There's nothing incredibly incriminating for having a learning or intellectual deficiency. Is it possible? Yeah, definitely. It's also possible he is just lazy and suckling from the teat as much as he can. That's fairly common for the youngest in a family.

That being the case I'll ask you a question. If he does have an impairment, how does that change the situation at all? If your parents are enabling him, being diagnosed as such could turn out to be a big problem. It's easy then to give his situation an excuse.

"He's intellectually disabled, so we take care of him."

It sounds like to me the issue needs to be brought up to your parents about them being enablers, instead of focusing on whether or not your brother is intellectually handicapped. Even those individuals who are can lead fairly productive lives when pushed to do so. That's going to start with the caretakers.

Just something to think about.
 

Zemedici

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Oh man, tough situation. Your brother seems eccentric yes, but I dont know about a disorder. Has he ever been forced to hold some sort of responsiblity, or has mom came in and cleaned his room every week his whole life? My brother's a year behind me, and he just now started accepting some responsiblity, but his room/etc is still out of control. Its all in what an individual is used to and how they are treated/cared for. If he's never had to 'grow up' so to speak, why should he? Some individuals dont make these life changes without a sort of push, do you know what I mean?

could he have some sort of disability? of course.

Do I think its magnified by your mom coddling him? of course.
 

ElscottHavoc

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Thanks for the input. Thats actually an interesting way of thinking about it and as I've been processing this, I guess haven't considered the fact that it could enable problems further.

I'm sure its probably a bit of both. I'm confident in that hes struggling with an intellectual disorder, but I won't discredit the fact he's mooching off the perks of living at home without responsibilities. Even the clients my wife works with who have severe intellectual disorders have an oddly "mature" concept of how to use the system in the favor.

I mean, an evaluation that officiates my thoughts might add fuel to the fire of course, and also if I'm wrong it could be a complete embarassment to him and me as well. However, I also wonder if having a better understanding of what he's going through (considering I'm correct) could allow us to take appropriate action for assisting him and transitioning him into a more normal life. I know most people are probabky just assuming he is messy and cluttered, but its honestly more than that if but difficult to explain without actually experiencing and being around it.

Originally, yes I just thought he was messy and lazy, but the way he becomes attached to essentially worthless objects is beyond being too lazy to walk downstairs and toss away garbage. For instance, when we my sister had a falling out with our family a few years ago (she has different father who is dead, eloping with guy parents didn't know, borrowed money, drinking problems, etc) for reasons I still don't comprehend fully, he started going through basement boxes and lining his bed stand with her old art projects she made in elementary school. She was maybe 28 at the time and my brother was 16. Then he'd stay up all night long watching family videos of her over and over and over again. My thought was that he was almost mentally locked into an age where the relationship we all had with my sister was still okay...I don't know, maybe that's crazy talk myself.
 
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Torch10th

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Thanks for the input. Thats actually an interesting way of thinking about it and as I've been processing this, I guess haven't considered the fact that it could enable problems further.

I'm sure its probably a bit of both. I'm confident in that hes struggling with an intellectual disorder, but I won't discredit the fact he's mooching off the perks of living at home without responsibilities. Even the clients my wife works with who have severe intellectual disorders have an oddly "mature" concept of how to use the system in the favor.

I mean, an evaluation that officiates my thoughts might add fuel to the fire of course, and also if I'm wrong it could be a complete embarassment to him and me as well. However, I also wonder if having a better understanding of what he's going through (considering I'm correct) could allow us to take appropriate action for assisting him and transitioning him into a more normal life. I know most people are probabky just assuming he is messy and cluttered, but its honestly more than that if but difficult to explain without actually experiencing and being around it.

Originally, yes I just thought he was messy and lazy, but the way he becomes attached to essentially worthless objects is beyond being too lazy to walk downstairs and toss away garbage. For instance, when we my sister had a falling out with our family a few years ago (she has different father who is dead, eloping with guy parents didn't know, borrowed money, drinking problems, etc) for reasons I still don't comprehend fully, he started going through basement boxes and lining his bed stand with her old art projects she made in elementary school. She was maybe 28 at the time and my brother was 16. Then he'd stay up all night long watching family videos of her over and over and over again. My thought was that he was almost mentally locked into an age where the relationship we all had with my sister was still okay...I don't know, maybe that's crazy talk myself.

One thing to keep in mind is that hording is more often a symptom of emotional issues, not developmental or intellectual. Many people afflicted with hording type behaviors have suffered emotionally and turn to things to fill those wholes.

Based on what you're saying, have you tried talking with your brother directly about moving on with his life? You want to approach some of this pretty delicately if you honestly think he's disabled in some way. If he's not, whatever emotional turmoil may be going on will certainly be exacerbated. Talking to him face to face and man to man about making something of himself address behavior only and isn't accusatory to something he may or may not be.

I'm going to preface what I saw by the fact that I am not a psychologist, but did initially pursue that career path post high school.

What on the surface may seem logical (you're worried about a metal handicap) is often a course that can become rather detrimental. Medical diagnosis and prescription treatment is kind of a fall back because it's easy, but in many cases, people aren't afflicted with anything more than having some emotional distress.

Let me paint a picture for you here. I'm assuming a lot, because I don't know your family or it's circumstances. But, take a larger than normal american family. Husband, Wife and three kids lets say.

Mom and Dad are fairly successful. Not rich, but successful enough that they can afford to give their kids what they want/need. The first child comes along and it's new. Parents don't know what they're doing. Hopes are high and a lot of attention is given to things like academics, behavior etc. Second child comes along now and parents have learned a bit about having kids. Some things they were stringent on with their first, they let go of on the second, but any good parent is still going to push for success in critical behaviors academics and responsibilities.

This can create a bit of healthy competition between the first and second child in a healthy family unit. This competition can drive success in itself.

Finally, the 3rd child comes along. For some families that child is going to be considerably younger that the first child at this point. While the first and second child are growing up and are now less dependent on parental figures, that leaves a lot of attention granted towards the new arrival. That combined with the possibility or larger purchasing power as you age, puts the third child in risk of being coddled and babied. After all, the other two are off being successful at this point and in some cases mom especially feels the need to still be mom. You end up with the youngest being coddled to the point where they don't function as society would like them to. Laziness, inability to think critically, social apprehension etc. Not because they are handicapped in any way, but because they never were forced to fend for themselves and take up their personal responsibilities.

The fact that your brother is now in his 20's and mom is still actively treating him like a child explains a lot of what you're having issues with. Through her eyes, shes sees him still as a child that needs to be taken care of. That's powerful socialism right there. If she believes that, it rubs off on him and why not? If mom is going to give me everything and not expect anything, who wouldn't take that ride?

You see the same thing with people that are in the wellfare system by choice, not by circumstance.

Again, I'm not a psychologist and that's just my opinion. If it were me, the first thing I'd do is talk to your mom/parents and your brother individually and see if you can affect a change.
 

RDJ

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to say that you are assuming a lot is putting it very mildly. and the fact that you not a psychologist is painfully obvious.

One thing to keep in mind is that hording is more often a symptom of emotional issues, not developmental or intellectual. Many people afflicted with hording type behaviors have suffered emotionally and turn to things to fill those wholes.

Based on what you're saying, have you tried talking with your brother directly about moving on with his life? You want to approach some of this pretty delicately if you honestly think he's disabled in some way. If he's not, whatever emotional turmoil may be going on will certainly be exacerbated. Talking to him face to face and man to man about making something of himself address behavior only and isn't accusatory to something he may or may not be.

I'm going to preface what I saw by the fact that I am not a psychologist, but did initially pursue that career path post high school.

What on the surface may seem logical (you're worried about a metal handicap) is often a course that can become rather detrimental. Medical diagnosis and prescription treatment is kind of a fall back because it's easy, but in many cases, people aren't afflicted with anything more than having some emotional distress.

Let me paint a picture for you here. I'm assuming a lot, because I don't know your family or it's circumstances. But, take a larger than normal american family. Husband, Wife and three kids lets say.

Mom and Dad are fairly successful. Not rich, but successful enough that they can afford to give their kids what they want/need. The first child comes along and it's new. Parents don't know what they're doing. Hopes are high and a lot of attention is given to things like academics, behavior etc. Second child comes along now and parents have learned a bit about having kids. Some things they were stringent on with their first, they let go of on the second, but any good parent is still going to push for success in critical behaviors academics and responsibilities.

This can create a bit of healthy competition between the first and second child in a healthy family unit. This competition can drive success in itself.

Finally, the 3rd child comes along. For some families that child is going to be considerably younger that the first child at this point. While the first and second child are growing up and are now less dependent on parental figures, that leaves a lot of attention granted towards the new arrival. That combined with the possibility or larger purchasing power as you age, puts the third child in risk of being coddled and babied. After all, the other two are off being successful at this point and in some cases mom especially feels the need to still be mom. You end up with the youngest being coddled to the point where they don't function as society would like them to. Laziness, inability to think critically, social apprehension etc. Not because they are handicapped in any way, but because they never were forced to fend for themselves and take up their personal responsibilities.

The fact that your brother is now in his 20's and mom is still actively treating him like a child explains a lot of what you're having issues with. Through her eyes, shes sees him still as a child that needs to be taken care of. That's powerful socialism right there. If she believes that, it rubs off on him and why not? If mom is going to give me everything and not expect anything, who wouldn't take that ride?

You see the same thing with people that are in the wellfare system by choice, not by circumstance.

Again, I'm not a psychologist and that's just my opinion. If it were me, the first thing I'd do is talk to your mom/parents and your brother individually and see if you can affect a change.
 

Katy TX5.0

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He's an adult and your parents are adults. You can't do a thing. Get on with your life before you realize you've wasted a lot of time.
 

Torch10th

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to say that you are assuming a lot is putting it very mildly. and the fact that you not a psychologist is painfully obvious.

Which is why I stated such. I'm not trying to act like a know it all here because I don't, nor did I claim to be. There's no reason to attack an objective opinion.

I've seen this exact thing happen to people I know, which is why I bring it up. My wife's brother is basically in the same position. Took forever to get out of the house, can't hold a job down, functions financially solely because of his parents, socializes mainly with people much younger than he is.

He's not at all mentally handicapped. He's not a high functioning autistic, he's just lazy and has never had to take on responsibility because his parents did it for him.

Certainly sounds like a familiar case to what the OP is going through.
 

RDJ

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Attack? I didn't attack. I could have picked that apart line by line but didn't. I didn't expand my post further because I didn't want to look like I was trying to analyze the situation since I am in no position to analyze anything. I have a fair amount of experience in dealing with family members with mental issues, I have several close friends with autistic kids, some of them high functioning, an ex brother in law that was paranoid schizophrenic. in your analysis you ignored several things that says this is not about a lazy family member. in your rush to expound you opinion, you seemed to have cherry picked the symptoms that matched that of your brother and applied the same logic that you diagnosed him with.

Which is why I stated such. I'm not trying to act like a know it all here because I don't, nor did I claim to be. There's no reason to attack an objective opinion.

I've seen this exact thing happen to people I know, which is why I bring it up. My wife's brother is basically in the same position. Took forever to get out of the house, can't hold a job down, functions financially solely because of his parents, socializes mainly with people much younger than he is.

He's not at all mentally handicapped. He's not a high functioning autistic, he's just lazy and has never had to take on responsibility because his parents did it for him.

Certainly sounds like a familiar case to what the OP is going through.
 

ElscottHavoc

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I know they're all adults and its not that I'm incapable of getting along with my life. I mean, it isnt like I'm failing to succeed or incapable of leaving them to live their lives while I live mine, its just that with the holidays coming up I'm going to be heading to their house and its going to ignite that fire within me that is aggravated by the situation as a whole.

So on one hand, I'm going to get frustrated by my brother as a result of his stubbornness and such and desperately want to give him the man to man talk about shaping up and on the other hand I've just been wondering if instead of being frustrated and giving him hard love I instead need to be patient and approach the situation differently.

I mean, sure, I should probably let things be as they are from one perspective, but at the same time I can't let myself watch someone abuse the system or go without the help they need. And of course, my parents can make their own choices, but I'm also quite aware of how we could somewhat subconciously belive our children are without fault and I could see how it could be possible that they might be ignorant to the fact he needs some help - be it therapy, tutoring, etc.

Absolutely, some parts of his personality are completely lazy. Leaving pizza on his bedroom floor for days is lazy. Calling in to work sick a lot is lazy. Having mommy clean up after him and pay his bills is lazy. But drawing on walls at 18 years old? Collecting pictures of my ex-girlfriends in a secret lock box? Rewatching family videos on repeat for hours on end late into the night? That's not just laziness...

But then, even if he was diagnosed -what then? Perhaps as it has been mentioned, I'm still stuck watching the samr behaviors only now I can say "I told you so" - what good does that do? Maybe getting him some therapy to deal with the emotional stresses at the bottom of it...I dont know what I'm really looking to achieve.

Anyways, thanks for everyone chiming in. It was nice jut writing this down and telling someone else what's been going on in my head this afternoon.
 
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RDJ

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Your brother needs at the very least to see a doctor preferably a couple of them. A psychiatryst that will check his blood brain chemistry and an MD to check his physical health. Just because he APPEARS to be healthy does not mean he is. and a blood / brain chemistry analysis would show if there are other things at work that are treatable. SOME of what you posted does indeed sound like maybe a spoiled and lazy kid borther whose parents have perhaps indulged him too much. but some of the other stuff ... COULD be (not is) much more than that and should be checked.

I know they're all adults and its not that I'm incapable of getting along with my life. I mean, it isnt like I'm failing to succeed or incapable of leaving them to live their lives while I live mine, its just that with the holidays coming up I'm going to be heading to their house and its going to ignite that fire within me that is aggravated by the situation as a whole.

So on one hand, I'm going to get frustrated by my brother as a result of his stubbornness and such and desperately want to give him the man to man talk about shaping up and on the other hand I've just been wondering if instead of being frustrated and giving him hard love I instead need to be patient and approach the situation differently.

I mean, sure, I should probably let things be as they are from one perspective, but at the same time I can't let myself watch someone abuse the system or go without the help they need. And of course, my parents can make their own choices, but I'm also quite aware of how we could somewhat subconciously belive our children are without fault and I could see how it could be possible that they might be ignorant to the fact he needs some help - be it therapy, tutoring, etc.

Anyways, thanks for everyone chiming in. It was nice jut writing this down and telling someone else what's been going on in my head this afternoon.
 

Torch10th

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Attack? I didn't attack. I could have picked that apart line by line but didn't. I didn't expand my post further because I didn't want to look like I was trying to analyze the situation since I am in no position to analyze anything. I have a fair amount of experience in dealing with family members with mental issues, I have several close friends with autistic kids, some of them high functioning, an ex brother in law that was paranoid schizophrenic. in your analysis you ignored several things that says this is not about a lazy family member. in your rush to expound you opinion, you seemed to have cherry picked the symptoms that matched that of your brother and applied the same logic that you diagnosed him with.

Sure I can see that, because yes, I did for matching symptoms. I could also add that he's an addict, self deprecating etc, but I chose not to because I didn't feel it was relevant. That's my error in assuming it wouldn't be.

With that said, my hypothetical situation is based off the confluence theory which suggest birth order effects on such things as behavior and intelligence.

http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/wlsresearch/publications/files/public/Retherford-Sewell_Birth.Order.I.pdf

But I don't want to derail the OP's thread or get in to a meaningless debate with somebody over that issue. I'll simply state that it's not my belief that one should automatically go to a medical diagnosis for something that could possibly be a socialized behavior for them. If that's the case, no amount of medication would help anyway.

OP, I really would just try and sit down with your brother in a non-confrontational way and see what he's doing with his life. That's at least a start and a jumping off point.
 

ElscottHavoc

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Yeah. That's probably a good spot to start. He can be extremely stubborn on accepting my input, despite the fact he relies so much on our parents, he's intent that he doesn't need anyones input or help.

Regardless of his need or lack of need for professional intervention, I'll at least try and find time this weekend to chit chat about life and where he wants to go in it - usually it ends in hostility due to him not considering my advice, but perhaps I can do a better job of just being an open book instead of a "judge" of his life. I know he wants to get married in a few years to this girl he met, so maybe I can carefully talk about what responsibilities marriage will incur.
 

Torch10th

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Yeah. That's probably a good spot to start. He can be extremely stubborn on accepting my input, despite the fact he relies so much on our parents, he's intent that he doesn't need anyones input or help.

Regardless of his need or lack of need for professional intervention, I'll at least try and find time this weekend to chit chat about life and where he wants to go in it - usually it ends in hostility due to him not considering my advice, but perhaps I can do a better job of just being an open book instead of a "judge" of his life. I know he wants to get married in a few years to this girl he met, so maybe I can carefully talk about what responsibilities marriage will incur.

Maybe try not giving any advise? Approach it as two brothers wanting to know what each is up to. Maybe instead, ask how he's going to propose.
 

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