E85 vs c16

[Scuba-Matt]

google it...people report the same gains over C16. Plus who wants to use leaded gas??

Ever see a boosted car make max power at 26*? Thats getting into NA territory. Hell Im at 21* on a 125 shot.

Im gonna stop here bc clearly you guys are just posting to post. Im keeping my $3 gas and running mid 9s

:beer:

Yes I've read that.
My point is, The PI heads on the Gen2 Lightning are very unforgiving. 4 valve heads are very forgiving. the timing on 4 valve heads can be pushed past the point of making power and one can expect little detonation. On the PI 2 valve head detonation is a killer just past 20 degrees timing with C16 and 25 psi boost.
I have yet to see any info on the PI heads and E85.

 

[04sleeper]

Does anyone in this thread have any apples to apples comparisons?

Posting vids of big motors with huge twin turbos and articles to KOTS prove nothing. Also people basing their performance gains off of their butt dynos or what their buddys brother ran. I want to see back to back (before and after) dyno pulls and 1320 runs in a car or truck that is identical with the exception of the fuel (C16 to E85) and timing adjustments in the tune to take advantage of the available octane and/or knock inhibitors.

I have seen it so many times I can't even keep track of them any more. Back to back on the dyno with the EXACT SAME TIMING I have seen E85 outperform C16! Plain and simple. All were taken to the track and ran quicker ET's than previous runs with C16.

Believe me or not. It really doesnt bother me either way. I'm just stating real world experience and sharing it. That's all.

I saw this the other day. But did not respond then. But now that it has been brought up on our Lightning Forum(lightninrodder.com) I think I must.

How many are pushing a severly limited cylinder head design as hard as the ScubaMatt? A 2V Modular motor does not tolerate boost or timing well. It is real sensitive to the perils of detonation. Not like the 4V motors I am sure most of you run. Those handle way more boost and timing safely. You other examples of success are more of the same. The weight and aero penalty we fight makes the load real high and the dangers higher.

It may be fully possible to achieve Mean Best Timing on E85 for your motors. I would not try to approach our MBT without the support of C16. It's motor octane number is well above E85. And has a very attractive RVP. Would E85 be a good street fuel? Absolutely! If you need to turn up the timing or boost for driving around it is a fairly innexpensive way to get good performance fuel. But my 93 pump tuneup has too much power to hook up on street tires(MT DRs) as it is.

Jim

Even with the same timing I have seen gains achieved. Doesn't matter what the motor octane number is because that is irrelevant. E85 does not perform like gasoline, so you can not think in those terms. It performs much higher than the octane it is rated for.

I encourge you to try it for yourself. It will change your mind I can assure you.

BADASS03SVT fought with the same thing for a year and a half before trying it. Now he is a firm believer as well.

^^ Unfounded and unproven.. Until its been tested is all hog wash and just speculation.


Bottom line is you guys are arguing your OPINION with ZERO experience to back it up. You don't like running E85 JUST BECAUSE. Not because you have used it and can't make the power but JUST BECAUSE you don't like the idea of it. If everyone though t like you guys then the ENTIRE automotive community as a whole would be stuck int he past like a few other bull headed communities. The FACT is that it shows great resilience to detonation and makes obnoxious power for something that cost $3 at the pump. Those of that drive our vehicles on the street love the fact our cars are on kill mode 24/7 for chump change. Considering the difference in price from Premium and E85 my millage per dollar is about the same with power of race fuel.

You guys coming in here making ignorant post need to leave the bullsh*t at the door. If you have never used E85 before then this isn't a discussion you need even be apart of because at that point you're just pissing ignorance and leading on with speculation. The CORRECT answer to the OP from such people should be "I DON'T KNOW.." because you don't.

Try then let us know it failed.. People being too scared to properly push E85 is the reason people see subpar numbers, its more than just adding fuel and going about your merry way. If you want to see it make race gas numbers then you need to tune it like race gas. Bottom line.

I am going to have to agree with you here. The experts are always the ones with no experience. People like to fight change. Its just human nature.

Imagine what it would have done with C16 instead of the VP109 and E85. Still apples to oranges......

It would have done nothing! Plain and simple.

google it...people report the same gains over C16. Plus who wants to use leaded gas??

Ever see a boosted car make max power at 26*? Thats getting into NA territory. Hell Im at 21* on a 125 shot.

Im gonna stop here bc clearly you guys are just posting to post. Im keeping my $3 gas and running mid 9s

:beer:

Tell them you were skeptical as well. Now you are seeing not only more HP, but lower ET's and a fatter wallet!

Yes I've read that.
My point is, The PI heads on the Gen2 Lightning are very unforgiving. 4 valve heads are very forgiving. the timing on 4 valve heads can be pushed past the point of making power and one can expect little detonation. On the PI 2 valve head detonation is a killer just past 20 degrees timing with C16 and 25 psi boost.
I have yet to see any info on the PI heads and E85.

Try it for yourself. I have yet to see it detonate on a motor. And I have seen some people do some pretty crazy things with timing and very lean A/F's where a normal motor would have melted long ago, just keep on going.

I do like the discussion so I will make a new thread and merge these posts into it because we got WAY OFF TRACK from the OP's topic.

 

[04sleeper]

E85 Octane VS C16

Merged from the other thread.

 

[Ironhand]

Why does everyone compare the Motor Octane of gas and E-85. It doesnt make sense.

E-85 consumes between 30-33% more fuel for the same power as regular gas. So that number should go up quite a bit.. Maybe 30-33% but no one actually knows.

I built my car specifically for E-85. And I havent heard of a car on E-85 blowing up or detonating yet.

 

[y2k2gt]

Yes I've read that.
My point is, The PI heads on the Gen2 Lightning are very unforgiving. On the PI 2 valve head detonation is a killer just past 20 degrees timing with C16 and 25 psi boost.
I have yet to see any info on the PI heads and E85.

I have PI heads and run only E85...

 

[hurley383]

Evo guy's aren't pushing a 4400 lb truck with #23 boost and making 700+ HP with 2 valve heads on a 5.4 V8 and running 10.1's in the 1320
Maybe the Evo guy's never needed all the octane the C16 offers in the first place.
But my Lightning does.

You are right they are pushing 40+ pounds of boost making 660 or more out of a 4 cylinder weighing 3000 without driver running mid 9s. So 40 pounds to 23 pounds? I think E-85 can handle the boost...

 

[hurley383]

Yes I've read that.
My point is, The PI heads on the Gen2 Lightning are very unforgiving. 4 valve heads are very forgiving. the timing on 4 valve heads can be pushed past the point of making power and one can expect little detonation. On the PI 2 valve head detonation is a killer just past 20 degrees timing with C16 and 25 psi boost.
I have yet to see any info on the PI heads and E85.

The lightning i was talking about earlier was running a gen 2 whipple2.3 16.5 to 17 pounds of boost no head studs nothing all stock motor and the e-85 took it like a champ hell from the original tune we had on the truck when we did the trans and went in for a touch up the guy told us the tune was 10% leaner then when we had left before and the truck never had a hicup or anything tore the motor apart today and everything looking amazing...

 

[AntiHeightPunk]

Here's my buddies street car running just fine as well.

[youtube_browser]n3oJpcz409g[/youtube_browser]

how do you know n2s guys!? You move from FL?

 

[BADASS03SVT]

Yes I've read that.
My point is, The PI heads on the Gen2 Lightning are very unforgiving. 4 valve heads are very forgiving. the timing on 4 valve heads can be pushed past the point of making power and one can expect little detonation. On the PI 2 valve head detonation is a killer just past 20 degrees timing with C16 and 25 psi boost.
I have yet to see any info on the PI heads and E85.

And the ethanol would also take that AND make more power.

Like 04 said, I was hesitant at first also. Especially after seeing people try it and gain nothing or lose or whatever. But after reading about it and getting my ducks in a row to get it (40 min drive) I did it and never looked back.

To say the L heads aren't forgiving and C16 is the only option is bogus when you have 13:1 BBC's making 1000hp and then swapping over and gaining 50hp and the motor is fine. The L heads aren't a special breed that resists other types of fuel. It's worked in hundreds of other combinations it will work in that one. Period.

 

[Ct.TOPGUN]

Gaining power by going to E85 with no tuning changes says only one thing. The tune was suited for lower octane than the C16 carries.,

Jim

 

[BADASS03SVT]

Gaining power by going to E85 with no tuning changes says only one thing. The tune was suited for lower octane than the C16 carries.,

Jim

OK.....no tuning would result in "Kaboom" since the Stoich is no where near gas.

Good luck with your modding. :beer:

 

[04sleeper]

how do you know n2s guys!? You move from FL?

I lived in WPB for 20 years. I know just about everyone down there.

 

[04sleeper]

Gaining power by going to E85 with no tuning changes says only one thing. The tune was suited for lower octane than the C16 carries.,

Jim

OK. With that being said do you mix your own Race Fuel for the EXACT Octane that every car needs? I would bet not. No one does. They use the higher octane as a safety cusion.

We are not talking slow cars making 600-700 RWHP now, we are talking about race engines making 1500-2000 RWHP pushing 30+ psi of boost in large CID engines. That speaks volumes for fuel that can be had at your local grocery store.

OK.....no tuning would result in "Kaboom" since the Stoich is no where near gas.

Good luck with your modding. :beer:

He was speaking about the example I gave with the same timing used. The only thing that was changed was the A/F for the different Stoich.

But these were higher boost cars making over 25 PSI so they must have been stupid for running C16 because they obviously should have been running lower octane fuel. :rollseyes

Oh, and I am certain your car would not have made any more power with your combo on C16 VS VP109.

 

[Ct.TOPGUN]

OK.....no tuning would result in "Kaboom" since the Stoich is no where near gas.

Good luck with your modding. :beer:

Funny! But I should have been more specific. I was indeed talking about timing curves. Of course the A/F would have to be adjusted between the two fuels.

 

[Sinister04L]

Matt and Jim, E85 is a beautiful thing. You can run it instead of C16 on the Lightning with great results. Even if it only makes the same power as C16 it's worth it to run a much cheaper unleaded fuel. Of course if you already have a fuel system built for C16 and don't want to upgrade your pumps and injectors for E85 that's understandable. It does work though.

 

[Ct.TOPGUN]

Seems we have a few guys that are going to try this in Lightnings. I have also asked for feedback from the big four Lightning tuning shops. At least two of which have plenty of E85 experience(but mostly for street setups). I will certainly be paying close attention to these results. Just to be sure I have accurate info. Not having E85 available here makes the info moot for my own application. But can be useful to others.

Jim

 

[Scuba-Matt]

Matt and Jim, E85 is a beautiful thing. You can run it instead of C16 on the Lightning with great results. Even if it only makes the same power as C16 it's worth it to run a much cheaper unleaded fuel. Of course if you already have a fuel system built for C16 and don't want to upgrade your pumps and injectors for E85 that's understandable. It does work though.

Scott it sure looks that way.
I'll, be building my 2012 Mustang GT and running E85.
Man where have you been hiding? Hows the SS

 

[Turbo98]

E85 is a great fuel for ANY engine. People are wondering if it will work in this car or that, etc. Just set it up and run it. It will make more power, period. I don't understand the skepticism at this point. I challenge anybody to find somebody who has detonated it. Heck, we ran over 20 PSI and ran the timing up past MBT and it lost power so we backed it back down to 20*. No detonation.

 

[Sinister04L]

Scott it sure looks that way.
I'll, be building my 2012 Mustang GT and running E85.
Man where have you been hiding? Hows the SS

Sweet! I'll be running E85 on the SS too. Currently getting the new set up under way.

E85 is a great fuel for ANY engine. People are wondering if it will work in this car or that, etc. Just set it up and run it. It will make more power, period. I don't understand the skepticism at this point. I challenge anybody to find somebody who has detonated it. Heck, we ran over 20 PSI and ran the timing up past MBT and it lost power so we backed it back down to 20*. No detonation.

I wouldn't say any engine. For high compression engines and boosted applications, absolutely.

 

[SVTDice]

Listen, E85 Is great but you guys are comparing Apples to Oranges. Kind of, Let me explain

C-16 Is 119 Octane if I remember correctly. Now if you put it up against E98. E98 of 117+ Octane will come out on top hands down. However it is quite a bit more expensive then say E85.

C-16 119+ Octanefor 5 gallons = 80$
E98 117+ Octane for 5 gallons = 35$

Seems a bit more fair don't you think? Ethonol is a GREAT Fuel. People time and time again have had very good results. Dyno, Track, Street. There is countless threads, videos, blogs, informational resources etc. Proving this.

I'm sorry that some people see this in such a negative manner.

Just so you guys don't think I'm making this stuff up. Here is some links.

VP Racing C16 Race Fuel 5 gallon container

E98 Racing Fuel Now Available!