E85 eating main bearings???

bambinov8

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Having been around E85 cars for a while, and our experiences, we have never used special oils or done anything different from a regular gas powered vehicle. I have yet to see an engine failure due to just making the switch to E85. Just make sure you have enough fuel volume and that you're tuner knows what he's doing.

Using diesel oils is a good idea for performance cars anyways as they carry more zinc and lubricants.

Yes your right , but my idea here is trying to determine how a motor longevity will be if it is daily driven on E85 ..where lubrication can play a big role during the usual 3k mile oil change interval ..I'm sure a lot of guys using e85 in here aren't daily driven cars so using it at the track on a Wednesday night or a dyno sesh with fresh oil wouldn't be an issue ..I'm trying to find out if is true I got to change the oil evry 1500 miles if car is daily driven on flex fuel and not wait til it has 3k miles ..also what would be the best oil due to the fact of e85 thinning the oil
 
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bambinov8

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Also found this quite interesting from the oil folks in Australia and their knowledge of e85 + oil : :00 AM

Guy's.

I have worked in the oil industry for many years, specialising in Automotive, Earthmoving, Transport, Mining and industrial. Also I have been lucky enough to be racing cars since the 1990's

Currently I am racing in improved Production in a S14a 200sx My website, its obviously a built engine and we are using Power Plus E85.

When considering which oil to use, always check the manufactures recommendations. However when racing you may want to consider different viscosities (thickness). I use a United Oil product, which is the company i am currently working for. Please dont get caught up in marketing hype, all the reputable brands are good!

The most important thing when using E85 is to change your oil regularly, E85 destroys it. Also, to meet the new API rating "SN" the oil must be suitable for use with E85 fuel. So, when shopping for your oil, you really should be looking for an API "SN" oil. API "S" specs . Now this is where you will find it hard. To meet API "SN" the oil must also meet stringint fuel consumption tests, which means in most cases the oil will be thin. Also, like someone said earlier the base oil is likely to be a "Hydrocrack" which is not a "proper" synthetic. Hydrocrack Synthetics are still are very good product, infact most people on here will be using hydrocrack synthetics and not even know it. Hydrocraks can struggle a bit in ultra high temp racing applications as they can tend fume of their lighter solvents and leave only the thicker oil in the sump. You sometimes can see this as the catch can will have fuems coming out and may also leave some oil in the catch can.

So, ideally if you are using E85 in a racecar you will want full synthetic (PAO/Ester) that meets API "SN", but I dont think its available yet. The next best thing is an API "SM" that is a PAO/Ester synthetic and a viscosity that suits your requirments and CHANGE IT VERY OFTEN! If you are using E85 in a road car that does the occasional track sprint or drag race choose an API "SN" hydrocrack, I think the thickest you will find is a 5w40 or 5w50. United GX Racing API SN

FYI I use United Ulimax 10w60 SM (PAO/Ester) in my E85 200sx but also sell United 1 5w50 SM (PAO/Ester)to fellow racers using E85 in their racecars including some hardcore RB engines on E85, we change it after every race meeting. http://www.united-oi...AX RACING.pdfUnited 1 United Ultimax 10w60

People say the oil thins out when using E85 but from my experience I think thats incorrect. Its more like using Methanol, the oil congeals like having water in your oil!

When using AV Gas in our FD RX7 race car (500hp 13b Turbo) we use to get a full season out of our engine oil, so thats 8 race meetings and 4 practice days, thats 380 laps or 850kms. Now on E85 using the same oil we have to change it after every meeting.

I hope this helps, if you feel I am incorrect or if you have a question pleas elet me know

Ash
 

Vnmous1_04

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This is what I found out:

A couple guys sent their oil to get tested at 2, 3, 4, 5 and even 7k intervals and the results were that all wear was normal...these were on cars that were driven regularly and harsh driving conditions (Road Racing) Wear and tear numbers were fine as well as the TBN in the oil.
*Castrol's TBN at 7k was lower than usual but who changes their oil at 7k miles (Not me anyways)

Oils used were Mobil, Motul and Castrol.

A couple of others tested the Amsoil Dominator Racing Oil and said they prefer it over the others I mentioned but I didn't see their test results but this oil is meant for alcohol and meth applications! Amsoil Rep said 10W-30 is good due to the thinning!

*Another thing to do is avoid the oil going back in to the engine via PVC...so it's highly recommended to have a oil seperator and disposing of it regularly.

But judging from the results I'm not worried about running E85 as I change my oil every 3k miles so the oil should have more than enough protection left! :rockon:

I would say as long as you do a regular oil change of the brand of your preference along with oil separators you'll most likely be in good shape...I will be tuning on e85 and will conduct my own test in my eaton cobra at 3k miles with my oil of preference and post up results so it might take a while lol but I'll do it for my fellow SVTP members! :beer:
 

bambinov8

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This is what I found out:

A couple guys sent their oil to get tested at 2, 3, 4, 5 and even 7k intervals and the results were that all wear was normal...these were on cars that were driven regularly and harsh driving conditions (Road Racing) Wear and tear numbers were fine as well as the TBN in the oil.
*Castrol's TBN at 7k was lower than usual but who changes their oil at 7k miles (Not me anyways)

Oils used were Mobil, Motul and Castrol.

A couple of others tested the Amsoil Dominator Racing Oil and said they prefer it over the others I mentioned but I didn't see their test results but this oil is meant for alcohol and meth applications! Amsoil Rep said 10W-30 is good due to the thinning!

*Another thing to do is avoid the oil going back in to the engine via PVC...so it's highly recommended to have a oil seperator and disposing of it regularly.

But judging from the results I'm not worried about running E85 as I change my oil every 3k miles so the oil should have more than enough protection left! :rockon:

I would say as long as you do a regular oil change of the brand of your preference along with oil separators you'll most likely be in good shape...I will be tuning on e85 and will conduct my own test in my eaton cobra at 3k miles with my oil of preference and post up results so it might take a while lol but I'll do it for my fellow SVTP members! :beer:
thanks for the posted info , I did see that already when I was surfing info on the web ..nonetheless thanks :beer:
 

bambinov8

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BTW I got to see my car today on the dyno and made 669whp not tuned and just one pass ..car was getting built after the main bearing failure
 

Jimmysidecarr

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Hey Jimmy, does RP have a link similar to this?

The reference to formic acid in that link is incorrect.

I talked to my Royal Purple technical services supervisor Chris today about this thread and some of the issues raised and here is his response.



"The issue with the E85 is not formic acid. Formic acid is a product of the oxidation of methanol, not ethanol. Ethanol will oxidize into acetic acid; however, the real issue is that the ethanol itself is corrosive. It is a relatively weak corrosive substance (just a bit more than water), but will cause rust and oxidation. In an automotive application, high alcohol fuels can corrode metal components in the fuel system (and damage some polymers), and free ethanol can cause internal rusting of an engine.

In passenger cars made in the past 10 or 15 years, OEMs have made material changes to mitigate corrosion due to alcohol (i.e. more polymers in place of metals) and have started to use polymers and elastomers that are not as sensitive to the detrimental effects of ethanol. In a daily driven vehicle, engine corrosion due to ethanol fuel is not typically a problem, though, because most of the free ethanol will evaporate after the engine (and oil) are at operating temperature. In an infrequently driven vehicle, or worse yet, a vehicle that is operated routinely, but seldom gets to full operating temperature, free ethanol in the oil pan and other parts of the engine may cause non-trivial rust and corrosion issues.

As mentioned in post #24, the current API SN and ILSAC GF-5 oil specifications have added testing to help mitigate problems associated with free ethanol inside the engine by requiring the oils do a better job of keeping ethanol mixed with the oil. The downside to these new oils is restriction on phosphorus (and therefore anti-wear additive), but in most primarily street driven (and stock) applications this is not an issue. For highly modified engines using high alcohol content fuel, a good course of action would be to:

- Use an appropriate high performance motor oil
- Ensure that the fuel tuning is not allowing an excessive amount of unburned fuel
- Ensure that the engine is brought to full operating temperature when it is run (preferably for at least 15 to 20 minutes)
- Employ conservative oil change intervals based on time, rather than miles/kms for lower use vehicles

Be aware that the alcohol should not damage most engine oils. If enough ethanol collects in the oil it will either separate which could lead to “free ethanol” problems mentioned above, or it will stay in suspension in the oil and will degrade the oils performance as it accumulates. Or maybe a little of both. Also, oil analysis will not detect free ethanol in the crankcase if it has truly separated, unless it gets into the bottle with the oil sample. Another thing to be aware of is that TBN does not do anything to the corrosive action of free alcohol or water, so a high initial TBN will have little to no impact on the bad aspects of alcohol fuels."
 
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Vnmous1_04

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The reference to formic acid in that link is incorrect.

I talked to my RP technical services supervisor Chris today about this thread and some of the issues raised and here is his response.



"The issue with the E85 is not formic acid. Formic acid is a product of the oxidation of methanol, not ethanol. Ethanol will oxidize into acetic acid; however, the real issue is that the ethanol itself is corrosive. It is a relatively weak corrosive substance (just a bit more than water), but will cause rust and oxidation. In an automotive application, high alcohol fuels can corrode metal components in the fuel system (and damage some polymers), and free ethanol can cause internal rusting of an engine.

In passenger cars made in the past 10 or 15 years, OEMs have made material changes to mitigate corrosion due to alcohol (i.e. more polymers in place of metals) and have started to use polymers and elastomers that are not as sensitive to the detrimental effects of ethanol. In a daily driven vehicle, engine corrosion due to ethanol fuel is not typically a problem, though, because most of the free ethanol will evaporate after the engine (and oil) are at operating temperature. In an infrequently driven vehicle, or worse yet, a vehicle that is operated routinely, but seldom gets to full operating temperature, free ethanol in the oil pan and other parts of the engine may cause non-trivial rust and corrosion issues.

As mentioned in post #24, the current API SN and ILSAC GF-5 oil specifications have added testing to help mitigate problems associated with free ethanol inside the engine by requiring the oils do a better job of keeping ethanol mixed with the oil. The downside to these new oils is restriction on phosphorus (and therefore anti-wear additive), but in most primarily street driven (and stock) applications this is not an issue. For highly modified engines using high alcohol content fuel, a good course of action would be to:

- Use an appropriate high performance motor oil
- Ensure that the fuel tuning is not allowing an excessive amount of unburned fuel
- Ensure that the engine is brought to full operating temperature when it is run (preferably for at least 15 to 20 minutes)
- Employ conservative oil change intervals based on time, rather than miles/kms for lower use vehicles

Be aware that the alcohol should not damage most engine oils. If enough ethanol collects in the oil it will either separate which could lead to “free ethanol” problems mentioned above, or it will stay in suspension in the oil and will degrade the oils performance as it accumulates. Or maybe a little of both. Also, oil analysis will not detect free ethanol in the crankcase if it has truly separated, unless it gets into the bottle with the oil sample. Another thing to be aware of is that TBN does not do anything to the corrosive action of free alcohol or water, so a high initial TBN will have little to no impact on the bad aspects of alcohol fuels."

Awesome info Jimmy...answered a lot of questions I was about to ask!

Sent from Sprint Samsung Epic Touch 4G
 

bambinov8

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The reference to formic acid in that link is incorrect.

I talked to my RP technical services supervisor Chris today about this thread and some of the issues raised and here is his response.



"The issue with the E85 is not formic acid. Formic acid is a product of the oxidation of methanol, not ethanol. Ethanol will oxidize into acetic acid; however, the real issue is that the ethanol itself is corrosive. It is a relatively weak corrosive substance (just a bit more than water), but will cause rust and oxidation. In an automotive application, high alcohol fuels can corrode metal components in the fuel system (and damage some polymers), and free ethanol can cause internal rusting of an engine.

In passenger cars made in the past 10 or 15 years, OEMs have made material changes to mitigate corrosion due to alcohol (i.e. more polymers in place of metals) and have started to use polymers and elastomers that are not as sensitive to the detrimental effects of ethanol. In a daily driven vehicle, engine corrosion due to ethanol fuel is not typically a problem, though, because most of the free ethanol will evaporate after the engine (and oil) are at operating temperature. In an infrequently driven vehicle, or worse yet, a vehicle that is operated routinely, but seldom gets to full operating temperature, free ethanol in the oil pan and other parts of the engine may cause non-trivial rust and corrosion issues.

As mentioned in post #24, the current API SN and ILSAC GF-5 oil specifications have added testing to help mitigate problems associated with free ethanol inside the engine by requiring the oils do a better job of keeping ethanol mixed with the oil. The downside to these new oils is restriction on phosphorus (and therefore anti-wear additive), but in most primarily street driven (and stock) applications this is not an issue. For highly modified engines using high alcohol content fuel, a good course of action would be to:

- Use an appropriate high performance motor oil
- Ensure that the fuel tuning is not allowing an excessive amount of unburned fuel
- Ensure that the engine is brought to full operating temperature when it is run (preferably for at least 15 to 20 minutes)
- Employ conservative oil change intervals based on time, rather than miles/kms for lower use vehicles

Be aware that the alcohol should not damage most engine oils. If enough ethanol collects in the oil it will either separate which could lead to “free ethanol” problems mentioned above, or it will stay in suspension in the oil and will degrade the oils performance as it accumulates. Or maybe a little of both. Also, oil analysis will not detect free ethanol in the crankcase if it has truly separated, unless it gets into the bottle with the oil sample. Another thing to be aware of is that TBN does not do anything to the corrosive action of free alcohol or water, so a high initial TBN will have little to no impact on the bad aspects of alcohol fuels."
thanks for this great info jimmy , now my question is what weight should I get from royal purple for e85 ? Mobil said I be better if I use diesel turbo motor oil !:shrug:
 

sassafras

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I thought the AFR with e85 should be around 9. Correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks

Stoich for E85 is 9.76. Nearly all widebands are 'tuned' for regular gasoline and all a wideband does is measure oxygen content of the exhaust. If you are at the stoich point for either E85 or gas, the oxygen content of the exhaust is identical. Because the wideband is 'tuned' for gasoline an E85 vehicle running at stoich will measure an AFR of 14.7. So technically yes the AFR ratio with E85 should be 9.76 but because we are using gasoline conversion formulas and the wideband doesn't care what fuel you are burning, you typically see everyone report AFR's with regard to their gasoline equivalent.
 

MalcolmV8

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Excellent thread. Very interesting. So do flex fuel cars that run E85 from the factory have different oil change requirements vs if they run regular pump gas?
 

UnleashedBeast

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Having been around E85 cars for a while, and our experiences, we have never used special oils or done anything different from a regular gas powered vehicle. I have yet to see an engine failure due to just making the switch to E85. Just make sure you have enough fuel volume and that you're tuner knows what he's doing.

As stated, fuel dilution is all in the tune assuming the piston rings are in good working order. Check out this UOA of Amsoil 10W-40

This car is 700+ RWHP with a built MMR aluminum 5.4L engine. It's a TVS setup with 18 PSI and tuned for E85.

This was the second oil fill, break in fill was drained at 1,500 miles....hence, why wear metals are higher in the 5,000 mile sample.

Getting to the point....

After 5,000 miles, note that fuel dilution is less than .5% and TBN is still strong at 5.3

The lubricants detergent additives were still suitable for continued use with very low/unmeasurable fuel dilution. TBN doesn't fight off ethanol, but on the flip side....this engine lubricant didn't suffer from ethanol if it was in the sump. Longer road trips probably evaporate ethanol just like moisture.

96b796a9.jpg


Using diesel oils is a good idea for performance cars anyways as they carry more zinc and lubricants.

Diesel oils are not my primary choice to find lubricants that pass API SN certification standards, yet still have higher levels of ZDDP, and for three reasons.

1. Diesel lubricants commonly use magnesium and calcium as a detergent agent. Some tribologists have suggested that elevated magnesium ppm can cause deposit build up in gasoline engines. PCMO use primarily calcium.

2. Higher ZDDP doesn't always mean lower wear. I've noticed that lubricants containing lower levels of ZDDP, yet using moly and boron substitutes, having great UOAs as well. I'm still on the fence about high levels of ZDDP being a must for a street, non race car application.

3. You can see in the Amsoil sample above, higher ZDDP can be found outside of a dedicated diesel lubricant. You will also find high levels of ZDDP in Royal Purple HPS and XPR
 
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UnleashedBeast

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thanks for this great info jimmy , now my question is what weight should I get from royal purple for e85 ? Mobil said I be better if I use diesel turbo motor oil !:shrug:

Mobil 1 said that because their diesel oils have very strong additive packs. You will find similar robust additive packs in true synthetic PCMO lubricants.

Royal Purple HPS

Amsoil Signature Series

Both offer what you need.

I'd think you'd be fine with a 10W-30 oil! :beer:

You would be correct. Any true synthetic 10W-30 would offer stellar performance in your engine. Good luck making it shear. After 4,124 miles in my GT500, Amsoil 10W-30 sheared 0% maintaining its virgin viscosity.
 
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