E85 and non-ported Eaton question

[Blown_Away03]

Would a BAP and 60# injectors be enough to supply a 2.76 upper only, non-ported Eaton on E85?

Would it also be enough if I chose to run a 100-125 wet shot?

Thanks.

 

[Blown_Away03]

anyone?

 

[O4COBRA]

I'm interested as well. I want to switch to E85 for all the good reasons, not so much worried about the HP, that's just a bonus. I know we're not running big twin screws or anything but it would be nice to be ready for the future if we do.

Current mods:
-SCT XCAL3
-BF 2.76 with 100MM idler
-JLT CF RAI
-Bassani or/x & Catback
-Ported throttle body
-Stock pumps, blower, inj's, maf
-472/502 SAE with above mods

^ What would be needed for above, BAP, BAP w/GT's? 60's or 80's? What fuel line would I need as well? I'm guessing if planning for the future go with BAP w/GT's and 80's correct?

Possible mods:
-Ported blower (Stieg or Posi)
-SCT XCAL3
-BF 2.76 with 100MM idler
-JLT CF RAI
-Bassani or/x & Catback
-Ported throttle body
-BAP or BAP w/GT's
-60's or 80's
-SCT 2400

 

[silvrsrt]

I would like to know as well.

 

[DarkMach1]

I believe it should be enough, there's a guy over at M1R that has an Eaton swap on stock pulley with a cobra tank w/ a BAP and 60lb inj. running E85.

 

[boostftw05]

curious as well

 

[Jroc]

Probably but you might as well go ported. Don't get me wrong E85 will benefit any Cobra especially with its cooling properties, but a port is easy to do at the same time. Do a home port if you don't want to spend too much.

 

[mrose75]

I have a ported Eaton/TB/PL, 80lb injectors, an a BAP waiting on install. I have a 2.8 upper, Steeda RAI, and BF Idlers. I just need the SCT2600, BAP wiring harness and a tune I believe. I really would rather go the GT pumps route, but not right now, especially since there aren't too many E85 stations close enough to be worth it. But at some point I should end up near some and if not, I'm all set to go TS anyway.

 

[O4COBRA]

^ Well could you get it done already so we can get some info please...:beer:

On a serious note. Did someone tell you the BAP would be enough for an Eaton setup? If that's the case I'll be doing thing sooner than later. I just don't feel like dropping serious coin on a Fore hat and all the other goodies.

I wish some E85 experts would chime in for us little Eaton guys!!

 

[Digital]

You need to add 30% fuel as a rule of thumb. I would personally not run anything less then 80# injectors on e85 unless you wanted to just run a ported eaton setup with no nitrous. Then you could get away with a 60# setup possibly.
Also these are off the top of my head conservative numbers. I'm sure different setups and different people have ran more power depending on their exact setup and such. Also 30% is a fat number for e85. It doesn't always need to increase that much. Anyone else is welcome to tweak my numbers. Maybe someone from lethal?

Pumps
~500 -stock (350 e85)
~650 -bap+fpdm (450 e85)
~800 -x2 gt+bap+fpdm (550 e85)
~1200 -triple return pumps (850 e85)

 

[O4COBRA]

Just found this at 3:00 in the morning. Very interesting and exciting. The articles says you can run Twin GT's, and 60's on an 03-04 Cobra with a 2.76 upper. Car gained 20rwhp & rwtq...

E85 Terminator - 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords

 

[HotStart]

You need to add 30% fuel as a rule of thumb.

Also 30% is a fat number for e85. It doesn't always need to increase that much. Anyone else is welcome to tweak my numbers. Maybe someone from lethal?

I always see this figure thrown around (not picking on you Digital) and I'm just wondering how it gained so much authority. It seems like most people on forums will give you this answer. Perhaps it's just one of those things that someone said and then soon became "fact"?

By mass, E-85 requires 50% more fuel than gasoline. Not 30%.

Ex. if you were trying to achieve a stoichiometric A/F ratio with both fuels, you would need to hit the following targets which everyone is familiar with.

Gasoline would need roughly a 14.7:1 A/F ratio

E-85 would need roughly a 9.85 A/F ratio.

These ratios are based on mass. for every 14.7lbs of air, you need 1lb of gasoline.

if you are consuming 100lbs of air, you need to use 6.80lbs of gasoline to achieve a 14.7:1 ratio.

(100/14.7=6.80)

To achieve stoich with that same 100lbs of air using E-85, you would need 10.15lbs of fuel.

(100/9.85=10.15)

Now if we're talking about how much MORE fuel you'd need to run E-85 if you were previously using gasoline, you would need to increase your fuel mass from 6.80lbs to 10.15lbs...

(10.15/6.80=1.492)

So the number that you'd have to multiply 6.80 (your gasoline mass)by to reach 10.15 (your E-85 mass) is 1.492. An increase of 49.2%.

(6.80*1.492=10.15)

 

[RamboCobra]

Im pretty much full bolt on. I have 63lb injectors/2.80 upper/ 6# lower/ long tubes/ custom port pretty much stage 5 /HE/TB plenum/idlers/twin GTs/ k&n fipk/and a 175 wet shot. Im going E85 so i should be tuneing in the next week or so. Ill let you guys know what AF and numbers i did.

 

[Digital]

I always see this figure thrown around (not picking on you Digital) and I'm just wondering how it gained so much authority. It seems like most people on forums will give you this answer. Perhaps it's just one of those things that someone said and then soon became "fact"?

By mass, E-85 requires 50% more fuel than gasoline. Not 30%.

Ex. if you were trying to achieve a stoichiometric A/F ratio with both fuels, you would need to hit the following targets which everyone is familiar with.

Gasoline would need roughly a 14.7:1 A/F ratio

E-85 would need roughly a 9.85 A/F ratio.

These ratios are based on mass. for every 14.7lbs of air, you need 1lb of gasoline.

if you are consuming 100lbs of air, you need to use 6.80lbs of gasoline to achieve a 14.7:1 ratio.

(100/14.7=6.80)

To achieve stoich with that same 100lbs of air using E-85, you would need 10.15lbs of fuel.

(100/9.85=10.15)

Now if we're talking about how much MORE fuel you'd need to run E-85 if you were previously using gasoline, you would need to increase your fuel mass from 6.80lbs to 10.15lbs...

(10.15/6.80=1.492)

So the number that you'd have to multiply 6.80 (your gasoline mass)by to reach 10.15 (your E-85 mass) is 1.492. An increase of 49.2%.

(6.80*1.492=10.15)

Good numbers. I'm just reporting off the tons of info I've read of actual results people have had and reported back. Why it seems to come back like that I don't know. Actually it seems like from most setup reports that they are using less then 30% fuel system, it's closer to 20%. I'd need someone who knows more about the fuel systems and e85 to chime in with some numbers. I'm not comfortable enough with my knowledge to guess as to why that is. Maybe sleeper and jared can comment?

Also maybe someone can help me with my table too? or add another fuel system combination to it?

 

[HotStart]

I'm not comfortable enough with my knowledge to guess as to why that is. Maybe sleeper and jared can comment?

As I said, I never understood the "30% rule" some how becoming a "fact" as it has on many forums. In some of my other posts I've mentioned before that although I think forums like these can be and are great learning tools, they can also work the other way when less than ideal information is passed through.

Although E85 requires roughly 50% more fuel than gasoline to achieve a similar lambda target, it is possible (on a case by case scenario) that it could use less.

An example of this could possibly be found in any car that uses a good amount more fuel than needed for peak power as a method of thermodynamic cooling. You'll see this a lot with people trying to push the limits of pump gasoline, they end up running very rich mixtures to fend off detonation. With the superior latent vaporization of heat properties of E85 in comparison to straight gasoline, it is possible to rely less on excessive fuel mass for cooling. In scenarios like this, the subject vehicle could end up using less than the estimate of 50% more fuel. Though not anywhere near the extent where you'd only be using 20-30% more fuel.

say you were using 93 octane gasoline, at an extensively rich mixture to act as a form of cooling. With this car you target a lambda value of .76, or an A/F ratio of 11.17:1. If you only added 30% more fuel, you would achieve a lambda value of .872 with E85. That is the equivalent to a gasoline A/F ratio of 12.81:1. A pretty significant difference, and one that is not within the realm of fuel no longer needed for cooling.

If you really want to hear a well known (and reputable) name say the information (which is fair, especially since I just talked about bad information on forums), then please see the following statements from Justin Starkey of VMP tuning.

you need much more fuel by volume. E85 really taxes the fuel system, the stoich point of normal gasoline is 14.64, E85 is about 9.85, 14.64/9.85=1.48, so you need roughly 50% more fuel mass to run E85.

2.5 lb/min fuel requirement on gasoline X 50% increased fuel demand for E85 = 3.75lb/min, which is how much fuel an 05+ GT should need to run E85, and my testing on Mike's car found that to be completely correct

[ame=http://www.vmptuning.com/forum/showthread.php?t=833]E85 testing on NA 08 Mustang GT 4.6L 3V - VMP Tuning Message Board[/ame]