Disgruntled after ford service visit

[blackbolt2003]

Short of the long, do Ford service departments charge by the job or by the actual time they worked on the job?

I took my 03 Ranger in to have the rear brake line replaced. It was leaking brake fluid all over the rear diff. I decided to take it to Ford service because I generally trust them more than a random shop. I was in a pickle and had to have it fixed that day and didn't really know what else to do. I dropped it off at 11:00 and the service rep had me sign a deal saying they would call if the repairs would be more than $65. I said, "Best case scenario it just needs a new brake line, fluid added, and flushed and bled." He said "yes, that's what it looks like."

At this point I'm thinking $40 in parts and 1 to 2 hours of labor.

The rep calls me at 12:00 and says it could be as much as $600 because the bleeders may be seized and it would take some time and possibly more parts if they can't heat up the bleeders to get them loose. I questioned him right away because I couldn't understand how it would take 4 hours or more to work on the rear brakes. I didn't think it would take that long to replace both rear drums and the brake line. I asked him when it would be done and he said they were shooting for the end of the day. I said to go ahead and work on it because I didn't really have options at this point and was hoping the bleeders would loosen right up and wouldn't require as much labor as he was estimating. The rep offered their shuttle service to give me a ride to a local bar or restaurant because he was thinking it was going to take some time.

At 2:00 I see a tech drive the truck around the building and park it. I'm thinking great that was only 2 hours this will be much cheaper than he estimated.

The rep brought out the bill and took me to the counter to pay without discussing the bill in the least. I paid the bill and was finally able to look it over. It was over $500 and didn't brake down labor hours. There was a short description about customer stating the brake line was leaking with a total of $437.50. A small amount for parts and $79.xx for flushing and bleeding brake lines.

I went back to service to discuss the bill with the rep I had been dealing with all day. He was "out to lunch", however, another rep tried to explain to me that they charge for the length of time the job is supposed to take and not the actual time it took. I argued saying the car was worked on for 2 hours. So, that's $250 plus parts. He said my best bet would be to talk to the other rep, but he was out to lunch.

I waited around for the original rep to return. When he did I said I didn't understand how I could be billed for labor that wasn't actually performed, you can't make time appear out of thin air. I also said you worked on the truck 2 hours after I approved the work. I asked what labor I was charged for because the invoice doesn't brake it down. He wrote 2.5 for one job and 1 for another. That's where the $437.50 comes from.

This is the way I see it. I was charged for 4 hours of labor when the truck was worked on for 2, 3.5 for two jobs and .5 for flushing/bleeding the brakes.

Is this normal practice for Ford dealers? If so, how is this legal? I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I did this to my customers and I don't think I would be in business very long.

 

[Blackoyote]

Most shops work on flat rate...if a clutch job in the manual on a specific car calls for 6 hours, the shop gets paid for 6 hours, and the tech gets paid for 6 hours - regardless of if it only takes the tech 3 hours to do. Inversely, if that same tech is shitty and takes 10 hours, you still pay for 6.

 

[Torch10th]

This sounds more like what happens with warranty work. In a warranty situation, the manufacturer pays X amount for X number of hours they deem it should take to perform the repair. They pay that amount whether the repair work came in shorter or longer.

When dealing however with an out of pocket repair a quality shop will bill you for parts and labor as it was accrued. The reason being that the mechanic at the time he's done with your vehicle can immediately start on something else. That's double dipping.

I would escalate this matter to the service manager. Let him know calmly and tactfully that this type of business practice isn't going to fly with you. If they refuse to rectify that situation, then hit your BBB, Yelp, Google reviews etc. and let him know that if you receive a survey from Ford they'll be getting 1's and 0's.

 

[Torch10th]

Most shops work on flat rate...if a clutch job in the manual on a specific car calls for 6 hours, the shop gets paid for 6 hours, and the tech gets paid for 6 hours - regardless of if it only takes the tech 3 hours to do. Inversely, if that same tech is shitty and takes 10 hours, you still pay for 6.

Many do, but at least based on what the OP is saying, that didn't give him a flat rate price. They would have been able to give him that pricing up front if that was the case. They charged him parts and labor based on hours they didn't put in to the job.

If at any point a mechanic is telling you "it could be up to x dollars, or we may need to confirm with you for more later", you're not being billed on flat pricing.

 

[mnewxcv]

Most shops go by the book hours.

 

[mnewxcv]

Many do, but at least based on what the OP is saying, that didn't give him a flat rate price. They would have been able to give him that pricing up front if that was the case. They charged him parts and labor based on hours they didn't put in to the job.

If at any point a mechanic is telling you "it could be up to x dollars, or we may need to confirm with you for more later", you're not being billed on flat pricing.

Not entirely true. They were saying it could be up to a certain amount, because if the bleeders were stuck, itd be extra parts/labor to replace the wheel cylinders.

 

[Shhhh]

Most shops go by the book hours.

Not entirely true. They were saying it could be up to a certain amount, because if the bleeders were stuck, itd be extra parts/labor to replace the wheel cylinders.

Most shops work on flat rate...if a clutch job in the manual on a specific car calls for 6 hours, the shop gets paid for 6 hours, and the tech gets paid for 6 hours - regardless of if it only takes the tech 3 hours to do. Inversely, if that same tech is shitty and takes 10 hours, you still pay for 6.

Exactly. All normal things. Look up automotive labor manuals on google. There's probably a website or video that explains it more thoroughly.

 

[blackbolt2003]

Even if the regular practice is to bill flat rate, don't you think an entire afternoon is an excessive estimate for replacing a brake line and bleeding/flushing the lines? There was no job code, which would indicate the estimate was pulled from the book. The code was "customer" with the description I wrote above.

 

[Black02GT]

What others said, worked as a service writer for awhile. It's all in the computer more or less, put in the vehicle info and job and the labor time. "Labor Hours" aren't the actual hours the car is being worked on. The way it's broken causes confusion and upsets people but its more like "for me to do x will cost y". If your not happy you can try haggling BEFORE the job is done after NEITHER party should adjust price.

It's really to protect the customer and employer. Think about it, if it was straight hourly (paid for exact time) your going to have guys dragging their feet getting paid more for less work.

 

[Crimson2v]

If your brake line was rusted through, chances are the bleeder screws were frozen or rusted. The line probably had to be bent and flared unless it was a rubber line. Did you ask what the labor rate was? Most are over 100 bucks an hour. So if the guy gets .5 to diag then an hour or so for the line, another hour to bleed your close to 2.5 or 3 hours then factor in the parts fluids and shop supplies and tax. The shops charge flat rate which means if the mechanic knocks it out in 2 hours that's money he gained but say if one of those bleeder screws broke off or any other scenario that would affect the time of the job the mechanic eats it. You should have negotiated the final price if you were not happy with the amount.

 

[bleedout]

its called flat rate, every shop works off of flat rate. Example, if you want your spark plugs replaced, and the book says it pay 1 hour of labor, but it only takes the mechanic only 30 minutes to do it because hes done it two thousand times, you still pay 1 hour of labor.

 

[black92]

I'm surprised they even thought it'd be $65. Hourly rates are usually about $90 and that's not including the part, which is also outrageously priced. I did the same thing a few years back when my '02 Explorer's window motor broke. It was winter and I didn't have time to mess with it, so off to the dealership I went. $450 later, I was good to go... About 3 months later, the rear motor went and I had time to fix it myself ($180).

Only reason I would use the dealership is for warranty work. Otherwise, find a mom and pop shop that people recommend and go there next time.

 

[mnewxcv]

Even if the regular practice is to bill flat rate, don't you think an entire afternoon is an excessive estimate for replacing a brake line and bleeding/flushing the lines? There was no job code, which would indicate the estimate was pulled from the book. The code was "customer" with the description I wrote above.

honestly, brake work at a shop is almost always expensive. Moreso at a dealer.

if it makes you feel better, my dad has a 2000 ranger and he had to have the rear lines replaced for the same reason, and I think he paid a bit more than you did for the job.

 

[Zemedici]

its called flat rate, every shop works off of flat rate. Example, if you want your spark plugs replaced, and the book says it pay 1 hour of labor, but it only takes the mechanic only 30 minutes to do it because hes done it two thousand times, you still pay 1 hour of labor.

this. Christ knows what the tech had to do on the rear end. However, seeing as how it was a 'custom job' - not routine maintenance like 'replace front pads and machine rotors', he shouldn't be able to charge you a book amount. Did he put it in the RO story what work was performed?

Regardless, if you were unhappy with the bill/felt you were being treated unfairly, you should have talked to the Service Manager, that's what he's there for, customer relations.

 

[mnewxcv]

I'm surprised they even thought it'd be $65. Hourly rates are usually about $90 and that's not including the part, which is also outrageously priced. I did the same thing a few years back when my '02 Explorer's window motor broke. It was winter and I didn't have time to mess with it, so off to the dealership I went. $450 later, I was good to go... About 3 months later, the rear motor went and I had time to fix it myself ($180).

Only reason I would use the dealership is for warranty work. Otherwise, find a mom and pop shop that people recommend and go there next time.

I don't think anyone thought it'd be $65, but rather that the service dept policy is to contact the customer for any job that will be over that amount.

 

[STAMPEDE3]

We call it "book rate" but yes, that is how all shops work pretty much.

 

[Speed Demon]

Thats normal practice at any repair shop you go to. That's how they, and the tech, make money. If the job called for 2 hours and it took them 4, you'd only be paying for the 2 hours of book time, and the tech would be the one bitching, instead of you.
I'm a tech at a small specialized repair shop and regularly turn 65-70 hours of labor on an average week, having only worked 45 hours, and thats just an average week. Ive turned as many as 98 hours on a busy week, having worked the same 45 hours actual time. Ive also had jobs that ate my lunch, 4 hour jobs that took me 7 hours, I get paid book time no matter how long a job takes me to complete. So how fair would it be to me to get paid for working 45 hours when i busted my ass to get 98 hours worth of labor done, or how fair would it be for me to charge the customer 7 hours labor when a job only calls for 4.
Book time is calculated by the manufacturer on how long they think a job should take. One big advantage to working on specific makes, such as a dealer, is you learn if there are any short cuts or faster ways of doing things, because the faster you get the job done, the more money the company and you can potentially make.

 

[blackbolt2003]

The shop gave me the same example.(if the job took longer than estimated, the shop would have to eat the extra time) This is total BS. The shop would not allow this to happen. They estimate more time than is needed to cover there asses. Also, if they had a tech that took consistently longer than estimated they would get rid of the tech.

 

[SonicDTR]

Never dealt with stuck bleeders? Replacing a wheel cylinder means you disassemble the entire drum assembly.

I think you got shafted as it was no more than 50$ on parts, but you got shafted in an expected manner IMO.

 

[blackbolt2003]

Has customer service reached a level so low that this sort of shafting is expected? I estimated a shafting of $300, I didn't expect to be shafted by a cactus with no lube.