Coil-over conversion. Which is better?

[01cobravortech]

start where the rear seat opening meets the passenger side rear inner wheelhouse

i welded mine, cliff bent his apart so it wouldnt creak.

Thanks bro :beer:

 

[oxfordman03]

What about the use of a roll bar to help with the rear flex caused by the coilovers ? Any effect? I have wanted to ask ShelbyGuy if he has a rollbar in use with all the track time he logs. I'm headed that direction myself and wonder what he (you) suggest. Sorry, a little off topic.

 

[01cobravortech]

I wouldn't.... but it is better than nothing. As Shelby guy said, the car was never designed to carry the weight of the car on the rear shock tower. Putting a load in that area will cause the chassis to twist, and start tearing spot welds in the rear seat area. The trunk\rear seat area is the weakest point of most unibodies due to the cavern of open space with little lateral reinforcement.

When installed the STB is in kind of in a weird place, but are not that envasive.

So what other problems do you think are a possibility other than spot welds tearing? The MM C/O is regarded the best C/O on the market today. What are other C/O problems do see, because to be perfectly honest, it seems that repairing the spot weld is no big deal. I'm not trying to minimize what you said, just noting that this is an easy problem to repair.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

So what other problems do you think are a possibility other than spot welds tearing? The MM C/O is regarded the best C/O on the market today. What are other C/O problems do see, because to be perfectly honest, it seems that repairing the spot weld is no big deal. I'm not trying to minimize what you said, just noting that this is an easy problem to repair.

The issue is not the coilovers themselves, it is the loads they put on the unibody.


The car was not designed to carry the weight of the car on the shock towers. I'm not saying you will destroy your car if you run coilovers in the rear, but you should be aware of what can happen.

There are plenty of people that have coilovers that don't have a RSB installed and have experienced no problems.

If you plan on running stiffer shocks and springs over 600# I would definately consider going with a brace. The stiffer your suspension and the harder you push the car could bring out problems. These cars are not known for their rigidity, and if you are going to spend the $$ for top quality coilovers, it would seem wise to spend the money to insure that the chassis stays solid.

 

[01cobravortech]

The issue is not the coilovers themselves, it is the loads they put on the unibody.


The car was not designed to carry the weight of the car on the shock towers. I'm not saying you will destroy your car if you run coilovers in the rear, but you should be aware of what can happen.

There are plenty of people that have coilovers that don't have a RSB installed and have experienced no problems.

If you plan on running stiffer shocks and springs over 600# I would definately consider going with a brace. The stiffer your suspension and the harder you push the car could bring out problems. These cars are not known for their rigidity, and if you are going to spend the $$ for top quality coilovers, it would seem wise to spend the money to insure that the chassis stays solid.

Agreed :beer: Have done all the chassis bracing thats available out there.

 

[ShelbyGuy]

i have the kenny brown street cage, which is a bolt-in 6 point affair. it made as much difference as the subframe connectors did.

that said, when you reinforce something on these cars, all we're doing is moving the weak point around.

i have a nasty creak in the back end of the car, and its not the usual one by the wheelhouse. my ipod box is rattling against the radio too which makes a buzz/creak inside the dash. i need spring to get here so i can work outside.....

ah, but whats a mustang without a few squeaks and rattles, right? (dont say "a camaro!" either!)


fwiw i dont run coil-overs now, and consider them way overkill for the street. every now and again when the mod bug bites me, i consider the MM coil over setup (especially now that kenny brown seems to have called it quit - his was superior).

the other thing that bugs me about the rear coilover setups is that super lame lower mount in single shear. that one bolt is all that holds up the car with coil overs and if it shears the car will slam to the ground. oops! the kenny brown setup at least had it in double shear. ive not seen a mustang shear it, but i have seen porsches that sheared it.

What about the use of a roll bar to help with the rear flex caused by the coilovers ? Any effect? I have wanted to ask ShelbyGuy if he has a rollbar in use with all the track time he logs. I'm headed that direction myself and wonder what he (you) suggest. Sorry, a little off topic.

 

[01cobravortech]

What do you mean KB called it quits? He stopped selling his C/O? How often do you think the MM C/O should be replaced? What I mean is how many miles of driving to do you think is too much beating on their coilover kit?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

What do you mean KB called it quits? He stopped selling his C/O? How often do you think the MM C/O should be replaced? What I mean is how many miles of driving to do you think is too much beating on their coilover kit?

All it is is a sleeve and spring over the stock strut or shock. All you will need to do is replace the stock strut or shock when they start to get soft.

 

[01cobravortech]

Excellent :thumbsup:

I thought I would have to shell out in the future for a coilover kit. New struts & shocks are a small price to pay.

 

[whippleblown03]

What do you mean KB called it quits? He stopped selling his C/O? How often do you think the MM C/O should be replaced? What I mean is how many miles of driving to do you think is too much beating on their coilover kit?

I tried calling KB and there phone no. is no longer in service! sounds like they are closed! :bash:

 

[toofast4u]

I tried calling KB and there phone no. is no longer in service! sounds like they are closed! :bash:

They are. Kenny is sick and they closed up.

 

[CobraRed01]

Lot's of good information here. Related Question for ShelbyGuy...I brought the point up above about the RSTB because I was considering doing C/O's in the Spring and heard it's really important (remember Mustangtaz?). I was thinkiong of M/M's C/O setup but with Koni D/A's upfront and S/A's in back. My idea is to try and not over-spring the car, but have the flexibility of tightening up the dampening and adjusting ride height for AutoX or O/T. Does this makes sense? Would Koni's be an advantage with standard springs? Thanks.

 

[2JZFAN]

MM..? :loser: Price isn't everything, good entry level products for the money, but I like my rear center above ground please.. thanks.
KB..? :xpl: RSTB.. shouldn't even be necessary.. great to market, i'm sure some people think it's a great idea.. speaking of marketing.. how about that railroad track setup weighing in under the Kenny Brown cars..?

Griggs. (Period)

All the companies have nice ideas and maybe 1 single pioneering product that the others should take notice.. but the best all around no sacrifice Mustang suspension company in my opinion and many others on track forums is Griggs Racing. Call and speak with the guys at Griggs and they'll explain everything. :beer:

Oh and where’s Evolution Motorsports? They make a GREAT rear suspension..?

 

[Blown318]

subscribing

 

[Cobra-R]

MM..? :loser: Price isn't everything, good entry level products for the money, but I like my rear center above ground please.. thanks.
KB..? :xpl: RSTB.. shouldn't even be necessary.. great to market, i'm sure some people think it's a great idea.. speaking of marketing.. how about that railroad track setup weighing in under the Kenny Brown cars..?

Griggs. (Period)

All the companies have nice ideas and maybe 1 single pioneering product that the others should take notice.. but the best all around no sacrifice Mustang suspension company in my opinion and many others on track forums is Griggs Racing. Call and speak with the guys at Griggs and they'll explain everything. :beer:

Oh and where’s Evolution Motorsports? They make a GREAT rear suspension..?

You sound like you know what you are talking about, I (as I am sure others) would really like to hear what specifically makes MM "entry level" and Griggs superior? op:

Brian

 

[blackvenom77]

I'm waiting also, 2JZFAN you have some explaining to do. :dw:

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

MM..? :loser: Price isn't everything, good entry level products for the money, but I like my rear center above ground please.. thanks.
KB..? :xpl: RSTB.. shouldn't even be necessary.. great to market, i'm sure some people think it's a great idea.. speaking of marketing.. how about that railroad track setup weighing in under the Kenny Brown cars..?

Griggs. (Period)

All the companies have nice ideas and maybe 1 single pioneering product that the others should take notice.. but the best all around no sacrifice Mustang suspension company in my opinion and many others on track forums is Griggs Racing. Call and speak with the guys at Griggs and they'll explain everything. :beer:

Oh and where’s Evolution Motorsports? They make a GREAT rear suspension..?

Wheee for stupidity.

 

[2JZFAN]

You sound like you know what you are talking about, I (as I am sure others) would really like to hear what specifically makes MM "entry level" and Griggs superior? op:

Brian

No problem guys I didn’t even know I was replied too, I didn’t get the e-mail. I’ll keep it short simple and on topic. I already spoke about MM’s superior subterranean rear roll center but this thread is about Coilovers.

I’m going to talk about two things in this post. One being the inferiority of the Bilstein shocks/struts MM uses in their kits,. The other being the 4-bolt CC plate they manufacture. It’s all really simple stuff but the Bilstein products MM combines with their coilovers simply ARE NOT meant for such use and abuse. As for the 4-bolt CC plates they make.. they’re just the result of great marketing.. Bigger is better, more is better! Do yourself a favor and go on CC and run a poll on how many MM 4-bolt CC/coilover setups have ripped the tower tops off of mustangs. Better yet ask around at your local tracks/events. I live near both Sebring and Daytona, lets just say I see a lot of mustangs.. I’ve seen it with my own eyes and I heard it from others. It’s a nice idea everyone can identify with “if three bolts, why not go 4.. 4 must be better” but no. It’s great for marketing! But not much else.. All the consumers who buy products for their cars usually fall for marketing. MM is a perfect example of good marketing with a great price. Griggs on the other hand is a great example of a suspension company proud to be in the business of Mustang suspension fighting off Porches and Camaros alike!

Much of the suspension threads fall into the category of personal opinion. This thread on this forum is a perfect example of such. Most people who comment here or at MF, or Corral, or any local forum have NO experience with a setup from either company.. Yes they bought MM CC plates and NO they haven’t ripped their tower top off BUT they don’t push their suspension. Can someone drive a car with a subterranean rear roll center? Yes. Will they find it easier in a car with a proper rear roll center? HELL YES.

I don’t stand to gain anything on converting you guys from one company to another. I could care less which you guys buy, my only concern is trying to help a person get the best product they can for their car. I know if I asked something on SVTP I would want a real answer based on factual information not opinion. Call Koni and ask about the Bilstein MM coilover setup, Call Griggs about a proper suspension setup or to better understand what it takes, you could even call the guys at Evo-M about the importance of a rear roll center (the creator designs suspension for Dodge). Whatever you do be safe, and be happy. :beer:

oh and if anyone was wondering I voted for Griggs. oke:

Wheee for stupidity.

:shrug: wow.

 

[Cobra-R]

1, Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are talking based on what you have observed and heard? Have you personally owned cars built with both setups?

2, MM offers Koni shock strut setups as well......and would be glad to sell them to you. The reason they sell mostly Bilstiens is because very few of us know how to properly adjust shocks. There is way more potential for us to mess up the adjustment than to maximize it's potential. MM offers custom valved shocks built by Bilstien for them, to thier specs, or you can buy just the generic off the shelf Bilstiens.

3, I have not seen or even heard of a MM plate ripping the metal out of the shock towers. I would like to see some pics hear the full story behind these multiple failures that you mention. If you go to the MM site, they explain the tech behind thier CC plates.

I have a Full Griggs race car, it won the 03 NASA AI championship on the east coast. It was setup by Griggs themselves .......guess what CC plates it has???????(No, not Griggs plates)

Go back and read my posts, this has been hashed out already. (starting at post #52)


MM does not have a "subterranean" roll center. (although a stock Mustang does.)

Can someone drive a car with a subterranean rear roll center? Yes. Will they find it easier in a car with a proper rear roll center? HELL YES

Also, if Griggs has such a ideal roll center, why do they make it
adjustable???????????????????????????


I am not trying to bust your balls. As I stated in earlier posts, I do have both MM and Griggs equiped cars. When someone makes a comment saying MM is a entry level suspension, they are not very credible to me. In the Midwest NASA region, both the AI(me) and AIX Champions were MM equiped, they deserve the credit they get.
Brian

 

[2JZFAN]

Brian,

They deserve credit don't get me wrong.. for marketing and monthly sales figures. :burn: No but really MM makes nice stuff, just nothing I would run out and buy. Let me answer your questions.

1. I haven't owned but I drove an MM E Street '95 Cobra R with a buddy for over a year.. and I've driven a GR40 '88 GT at an event some time ago.. That doesn't make ME an expert, but I would like to think I have some credibility and ability to judge.

2. See summary for answer.

3. Call around, you know someone who can confirm it.

What would you call their rear roll center then? immersed?

Adjustable because you know as well as any other driver we all seek a different feel.. no one setup is right for any driver in a given car. I know because of the time put in to changing a car twice for two different E Street drivers multiple times an event.

I totally get where you're coming from, I may have come off wrong to someone like yourself.. but the average enthusiast doesn't have the experience to determine the better of the two. With that being said only bold statements can attract the proper attention necessary. The Bilstein MM stuff is lacking in my opinion to the Griggs Koni coilover setups. It's not just the Bilstein valving but the package as well.. all I can say is ask around.

I'm not going to get any further into this conversation because my hands are tied. Whatever you choose suspension wise like Brian said you'll be fine.. you can win IA or AIX with either at this point.. only of course if you have the required skill that is. Brian :rockon: My point was Griggs coilovers > MM coilovers.