"Clean air act"

[delvin.a]

Listen little F'tard. I said I wasn't aware of any prosecutions. Post up examples if you're so inclined. If the EPA is allowed to go around just threatening instead of litigating, they'll leverage themselves across this country and impose their will. We need less people like you that with the mere threat of it being against the law just run and hide, and more people who stand up for their convictions.

The EPA has unlimited funds so regardless of the outcome they don’t pay shit but the business owner has to hire lawyers and they are not cheap and government court cases are not short events, they drag on for months all of which is out of pocket for the business owner. It makes no sense financially to fight the EPA, you could lose everything for what, so some dude in Texas has a rad sounding Mustang? No thanks


I agree with standing up for ones convictions but i also agree with Kenny Rodgers.

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

I don't get how they can dictate what you do with your car, mainly if you buy a new car and decide it will be used for motorsports and therefore will use aftermarket parts which these companies provide and market as off-road only. Basically the EPA is saying that if your car has a Vin number then we have authority over it and you will do as we say. I don't see how that stands up in the courts but stranger things have.

To be able to tell a motorsports team that they can't run their cars with aftermarket exhaust, intake, etc is an absolute overstepping of their bounds and the agency should be disbanded and the employees should never be allowed to work in government ever again. There's more that should be done to them for infringing on the rights of Americans but I won't go there, but to say the least... the perversion of our freedoms is disgusting to me.

 

[Deceptive]

Listen little F'tard. I said I wasn't aware of any prosecutions. Post up examples if you're so inclined. If the EPA is allowed to go around just threatening instead of litigating, they'll leverage themselves across this country and impose their will. We need less people like you that with the mere threat of it being against the law just run and hide, and more people who stand up for their convictions.

So you can’t read and/or comprehend what is posted on their site.

That was easier to say than your long winded BS.


Joe Biden has sniffed here.

 

[robvas]

But, I haven't heard of a single instance of the EPA suing or prosecuting an aftermarket parts supplier for selling off road parts that somehow make their way onto the streets. Maybe there are instances.

Earlier this week, Derive Systems was apprehended by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) for selling tuners under their SCT and Bully Dog subsidiaries that were in violation of the Clean Air Act. 330,000 units are claimed to be in violation. In addition to paying the $300,000 penalty, the company must spend an estimated $6.25 million to bring their products up to snuff.

SCT/Bully Dog Tuners Fined by the EPA for Clean Air Act Violations

 

[SonicDTR]

Yea this isn't made-up fairy tale stuff. Many businesses have shut down and millions of dollars in fines have been paid. It's a shame so few have heard about all this until now, we should have been more vocal years ago.

 

[Corbic]

I don't get how they can dictate what you do with your car, mainly if you buy a new car and decide it will be used for motorsports and therefore will use aftermarket parts which these companies provide and market as off-road only. Basically the EPA is saying that if your car has a Vin number then we have authority over it and you will do as we say. I don't see how that stands up in the courts but stranger things have.

To be able to tell a motorsports team that they can't run their cars with aftermarket exhaust, intake, etc is an absolute overstepping of their bounds and the agency should be disbanded and the employees should never be allowed to work in government ever again. There's more that should be done to them for infringing on the rights of Americans but I won't go there, but to say the least... the perversion of our freedoms is disgusting to me.

I think everyone is confusing the EPA with the DOT.


The DOT controls what goes on the roads from a safety perspective. EPA cares about pollution and they'd don't care if it's on a highway, in your backyard or at a race track.

Just wait for them to show up at your local drag strip with a OBD checker and looking for cat deletes - then they will fine the track and shut them down.

They don't care. They are assholes who get off on brow beating people. It's an entire government agency made up of self righteous Karen's who are saving the world.

Watch as all of your major racing organizations go electric. Nascar will be Teslas and Mustang Es before you know it.

 

[SecondhandSnake]

I'm so glad that faceless alphabet agencies with no oversight help tell me what to do with my own property to make this a safer world. God bless America.

As far as weekend warrior cruising, I think we're fine for the most part. As swapping exhaust/tunes around for an annual or semi annual emissions in some states isn't the end of the world. But modding on newer vehicles is looking to unfortunately come to a bit of an end with parts suppliers being restricted...

My bigger concern is are they going to somehow find a way to restrict private property racing events, think all the drag strips with 6, 7, 8 second cars. NONE of them can run cats. Top Fuel cars, NASCAR, IndyCar, IMSA, all the hundreds of dirt tracks across the country, are they going after those events? THAT'S what will piss me off more than anything. And can the State step in and make a decision? Because currently many many states have no emissions testing due to the fact they can show their overall pollution goals are in line with the EPA, so I don't think the EPA is quite the big dick swinger everyone thinks. The States have a lot of say.

These parts companies are selling across state lines though, and I believe that alone makes it so that the Feds have more power.

Edit: also I said this in another thread, but I imagine we see a LOT more pre 1975 exempt cars/trucks with modern engine swaps and every mod under the sun, as it would be "legal" then. What a joke.

Oh I'm sure they're salivating at the thought of clamping down on motorsports.

And while states may not have a means of enforcement through emissions tests, remember that tampering with or modifying anything considered an emissions critical device is a federal offense. And that doesn't just encompass cats or EGR. It's damn near everything, and that is made abundantly clear in the EPA training material supplied to SCT users as well as OEMs. You're only safe as long as the EPA isn't snooping on your car (or has a state doing the leg work for them, like CA.)

I don't get how they can dictate what you do with your car, mainly if you buy a new car and decide it will be used for motorsports and therefore will use aftermarket parts which these companies provide and market as off-road only. Basically the EPA is saying that if your car has a Vin number then we have authority over it and you will do as we say. I don't see how that stands up in the courts but stranger things have.

To be able to tell a motorsports team that they can't run their cars with aftermarket exhaust, intake, etc is an absolute overstepping of their bounds and the agency should be disbanded and the employees should never be allowed to work in government ever again. There's more that should be done to them for infringing on the rights of Americans but I won't go there, but to say the least... the perversion of our freedoms is disgusting to me.

Unfortunately it's completely within their bounds to prohibit you from operating/registering a non-compliant vehicle on state owned roads. But they can't tell you what you can and can't do on your own private property.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a challenge to the policy with some of the diesel parts that if you even purchased an item, you were required to supply a VIN, which was then permanently black listed from registration and therefore street use. That seems like a gross overstep, and would prevent future owners from running a perfectly compliant vehicle on the road. Though I'm sure they would grant some sort of exemption with an onerous inspection process that would technically make it "reasonable." Ex: Oh we're not permanently banning it, you just have to bring it to an EPA station, fill out mountains of paperwork, have them inspect every nut and bolt for a week, dyno test it in three different conditions and prove that it still has emissions margin, and then wait 12-24 months for the EPA to amend the blacklist. See? Perfectly reasonable.

 

[Blk04L]

I don't get how they can dictate what you do with your car, mainly if you buy a new car and decide it will be used for motorsports and therefore will use aftermarket parts which these companies provide and market as off-road only. Basically the EPA is saying that if your car has a Vin number then we have authority over it and you will do as we say. I don't see how that stands up in the courts but stranger things have.

To be able to tell a motorsports team that they can't run their cars with aftermarket exhaust, intake, etc is an absolute overstepping of their bounds and the agency should be disbanded and the employees should never be allowed to work in government ever again. There's more that should be done to them for infringing on the rights of Americans but I won't go there, but to say the least... the perversion of our freedoms is disgusting to me.

I don't think most major motorsports teams have to worry just yet.

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

I think everyone is confusing the EPA with the DOT.


The DOT controls what goes on the roads from a safety perspective. EPA cares about pollution and they'd don't care if it's on a highway, in your backyard or at a race track.

Just wait for them to show up at your local drag strip with a OBD checker and looking for cat deletes - then they will fine the track and shut them down.

They don't care. They are assholes who get off on brow beating people. It's an entire government agency made up of self righteous Karen's who are saving the world.

Watch as all of your major racing organizations go electric. Nascar will be Teslas and Mustang Es before you know it.

I know what the EPA does, I had to deal with them on an occasion at the shop I worked at. My question still stands that their authority does not extend to personal activities, but they don't seem to think that is the case. They are there to ensure businesses and industries are compliant with regulations, not individuals enjoying a hobby.

The answer is clear in that they are overstepping their boundaries, and that is why we are having this discussion. Also, it's Biden's fault for unleashing them.

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

View attachment 1692461

I don't think most major motorsports teams have to worry just yet.

Technically, with what they are doing now they have been granted (or granted themselves) authority to regulate anything that falls within their scope which is preventing pollution. That means any business they deem as a polluter could be remedied because I doubt their is an exemption for race teams just as there isn't an exemption for aftermarket automotive companies. They are doing what beaurocrats do best... take power that isn't theirs to regulate what isn't theirs.

I'm not saying this is what they are going to do, but from what it appears, there are not many restrictions on what they can target in their respective field. They could carry out a personal agenda under the guise of stopping pollution and that would be acceptable according to the law as long as they could come up with some level of justification.

 

[Blk04L]

Technically, with what they are doing now they have been granted (or granted themselves) authority to regulate anything that falls within their scope which is preventing pollution. That means any business they deem as a polluter could be remedied because I doubt their is an exemption for race teams just as there isn't an exemption for aftermarket automotive companies. They are doing what beaurocrats do best... take power that isn't theirs to regulate what isn't theirs.

I'm not saying this is what they are going to do, but from what it appears, there are not many restrictions on what they can target in their respective field. They could carry out a personal agenda under the guise of stopping pollution and that would be acceptable according to the law as long as they could come up with some level of justification.

Well it's always been a federal offense to tamper with emission devices.
Just that the EPA never really enforced it till recently.
Even in states with emission testing, some are fairly lax, or if you fail it stays a state failure only and they didn't notify the EPA that your car failed the sniffer/visual/etc
California and their CARB hurt the car scene but I don't really recall any stories of people failing in California and the State sic'd the EPA on them. It was more of a state failed test and get it fixed asap or you may not get your registration.

It was hard to tell what gas engines had cats removed or high flows added in a video. Sure, sound is louder but it's a dead giveaway when a diesel rolls out a thick black cloud of smoke.

The EPA stated they were turning a blind eye to companies/people that bought "competition" parts in the past. But when these videos pop up, and the manufacturer of said parts couldn't claim that the users were using the devices only in "competition uses" or not driven on public roads. Aka they knew their parts they claimed were for competition use only was a lie.

Maybe one day they'll go after race teams, but race teams have deeper pockets than the guys they are going after now. And, I think race teams(non drag teams) will slowly go the eV route even without EPA pressure as their sponsors and ford/chevy/toyota may give them incentive to showcase electric cars.


I'm not happy about this either, but I can't say I'm shocked the EPA is deciding to fine companies for something they amended into federal law in 1990.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ysrepair.pdf&usg=AOvVaw25QUwMkpQq4uPhQm78jssz

 

[SonicDTR]

I know what the EPA does, I had to deal with them on an occasion at the shop I worked at. My question still stands that their authority does not extend to personal activities, but they don't seem to think that is the case. They are there to ensure businesses and industries are compliant with regulations, not individuals enjoying a hobby.

The answer is clear in that they are overstepping their boundaries, and that is why we are having this discussion. Also, it's Biden's fault for unleashing them.

My understanding is their perspective is around the removal of federal controls, not necessarily what you're doing on private property. I don't like the comparison, but it feels akin to modifying a firearm to do things it shouldn't. If a vehicle/engine never had federal emissions in the first place, then you can't get in trouble for removing anything. So VIN-less vehicles *should* be out of scope for all this, but hard to say. I don't know of many(any?) engines that are strictly built for race use and never landed in an emissions controlled application.

 

[FordMoCo21]

.

 

[Tob]

The only way to fight back is via the court system. I suggest supporting SEMA and PRI in any way you can. Without them we are completely lost.

 

[FordMoCo21]

The only way to fight back is via the court system. I suggest supporting SEMA and PRI in any way you can. Without them we are completely lost.

Yeah as far as the legal way to do things, I'm hoping enough big companies could band together, and then the hundreds of thousands of hobbysits as well, to create some sort of case for "offroad use", or an exemption of some sort (drive less than 2k miles a year?). Rolling over they'll have their way with us, putting up some sort of battle, there may be a slight middle ground we can hope to achieve.

 

[Rb0891]

I'm so glad that faceless alphabet agencies with no oversight help tell me what to do with my own property to make this a safer world. God bless America.



Oh I'm sure they're salivating at the thought of clamping down on motorsports.

And while states may not have a means of enforcement through emissions tests, remember that tampering with or modifying anything considered an emissions critical device is a federal offense. And that doesn't just encompass cats or EGR. It's damn near everything, and that is made abundantly clear in the EPA training material supplied to SCT users as well as OEMs. You're only safe as long as the EPA isn't snooping on your car (or has a state doing the leg work for them, like CA.)



Unfortunately it's completely within their bounds to prohibit you from operating/registering a non-compliant vehicle on state owned roads. But they can't tell you what you can and can't do on your own private property.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a challenge to the policy with some of the diesel parts that if you even purchased an item, you were required to supply a VIN, which was then permanently black listed from registration and therefore street use. That seems like a gross overstep, and would prevent future owners from running a perfectly compliant vehicle on the road. Though I'm sure they would grant some sort of exemption with an onerous inspection process that would technically make it "reasonable." Ex: Oh we're not permanently banning it, you just have to bring it to an EPA station, fill out mountains of paperwork, have them inspect every nut and bolt for a week, dyno test it in three different conditions and prove that it still has emissions margin, and then wait 12-24 months for the EPA to amend the blacklist. See? Perfectly reasonable.

It's bullshit but they do and will tell you what you can do on your own private property.

 

[Tob]

...as far as the legal way to do things, I'm hoping enough big companies could band together, and then the hundreds of thousands of hobbysits as well...

What you speak of already exists. SEMA. Visit their site and spend some time there.

 

[TerminatoRS]

My '03 has cats, O2s, EGR...etc still functioning. Passes emissions every time without question. Obviously it's tuned. How does this affect someone like me? Or does it not because I've "followed the rules" by not removing/disabling/tampering with emissions nannies?

 

[SonicDTR]

Have to see how it all plays out... All I'm saying is things like NASCAR, and hell even this country in general were established from outlaw tendencies. The same will happen here. They can clamp down on OEMs, parts suppliers/manufacturers, etc. There's still a talented guy in a garage that the EPA doesn't even know exists, that can and will be cranking out mid pipes and headers on a "by word of mouth" basis. CA can't even deal with their own emissions guys doing under the table passes of cars not compliant. It'll be the same story here.

The car owners will find every loophole imaginable. Swap parts for inspections, have multiple tunes to run, more underground tuning will occur(think word of mouth advertising only, deep web access only, etc.), start running ****ing electriconic valved dumps pre-cat lmao, only drive on private property (racetracks, and if these manage to get shutdown more can popup anywhere in the country and they get more and more discrete every iteration), drive on back roads without registration (people already do this shit everyday and have since the car was created), remove the VIN and any other signifiers, OBD2 slot to check codes? Lmfao try and find it if there is NO OBD2 slot, and no VIN to be found how is this vehicle going to be tracked and or monitored? It's not illegal to own a piece of machinery you cobbled together... Register it? Obviously not, but see previous loopholes above; buy up every pre 1975 vehicle under the sun and swap those bitches with the most badass modern engines and run straight pipes (this is the big one for people that can afford it...), and finally just not give a shit and pay the fines and do whatever IF they even get caught.

The ONLY way this shit is enforceable for the individual is if they somehow manage to require your vehicle to CONSTANTLY report emissions data back to a MONITORED database, that isn't happening. They have money, but they don't have that amount of money or access, every department has a budget. There's as many or more cars out there than people. The government doesn't and won't ever know of every car still running in billy bob's shed. Especially on older cars, new OEMs yeah maybe. But at this point there's 100 years of roadworthy cars that we have to play with so who cares.

Agreed these examples will always be there. That isn't who they are targeting though. They're going after manufacturers, tuners, etc... If you can buy it, they will stop it. If you can build it and don't have to register it then they'll never have a way to control it. Carbureted home-built buggies will probably always be a thing.

 

[Rb0891]

All you dem voters trying to skirt this by looking at past epa actions and law signings, just stop. No one is buying the bullshit. The epa will continue to act on its own and is generally filled with marxist/leftist. Will dems push back on any of this, hell no. Will repubs. Maybe, maybe not but they sure as hell won't expand their power, unlike the dems. You all sound like my kids trying to convince me that staring at youtube is not part of their device time...