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Car spins terribly after installing bmr springs and stickier tires

Discussion in 'Driveline/Suspension' started by *Predator*, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. Coz

    Coz Active Member Established Member

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    If you changed front and rear springs to those that are stiffer, your front end may not be rising and transferring weight to the back. You should normally not change springs while keeping OEM struts/shocks. Recommend you get single adjustable shocks (rebound only) and set your front strutss on full soft and rear shocks on half to full stiff. This might result in better transfer than your OEM struts/shocks.
     
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  2. *Predator*

    *Predator* Member Established Member

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    That's a big part of it is it isn't transferring The front end is way too tight which I'm Suprised with these springs. Was thinking some lakewood 70/30 struts may help
     
  3. *Predator*

    *Predator* Member Established Member

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    We'll when you go from a 8 inch wide tire to a 10.5 inch wide tire of a softer rubber obviously that wasn't detrimental to traction. The problem is in the suspension. It no longer transfers at all really.
     
  4. Stangra

    Stangra New Member

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    The LCA should be at least parallel to your chassis with full ride weight on the wheels, but slightly lower at the back than the front is best.

    Speaking of CorteX, maybe this will help:

    Torque Arm - CorteX Racing

    I'm running a complete CorteX coil-over suspension with Watts Link & Torque Arm and it's.... Transformational!
    Better grip all around and most importantly, I can finally add throttle while still exiting a corner and stay planted.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
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  5. noldevin

    noldevin Active Member Established Member

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    I imagine it didn't have 20s stock. 20s are always going to be harder to hook on.
    Even though the tires are wider, they could actually grip less due to being a 20 with less sidewall. Width isn't everything.
    Which hole are the relocation brackets on? That could make a huge difference as well. The arms should be parallel with the ground, or slightly angled down towards the wheel. Never angled up towards the wheel.
    Temperature is another one. I know we've been having a weird fall on the east coast but there's been some cooler days. Those Michelins hate anything under like 65.
    Shocks and struts could certainly help. The stock ones don't like being lowered. I can't comment on Lakewood, but I know Bilsteins and Vikings are pretty well proven.

    You shouldn't need to spend thousands of dollars on the Cortex setup to get some grip, that's motorsports grade stuff. It's nice, but not necessary at all for the street. It also probably won't help much with those 20s. Maybe try a 275/40 in the back next time.
     
  6. *Predator*

    *Predator* Member Established Member

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    Thinking about a 305/35/20 replacement tire. Would that clear a lowered 2014 ok in the rear?
     
  7. Stangra

    Stangra New Member

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    I'm lowered 2" and running 305/35/18's and it's extremely close to the fender at full bump travel with +47 offset. Those 20's will add an inch to the top of the tire (and 1 to the bottom too), so you'd need a bit less offset to clear the fenders.
    There's not much room to offset less with coil-overs back there, pretty sure that shocks are about the same. 20180718_091540_HDR - Copy (2).jpg


    The link I posted to CorteX was referring to a Torque Arm. It's true that one doesn't need to spend the CorteX $$$$ to get better grip. Any effective Torque Arm will absolutely improve traction, braking balance, and anti-squat/dive, on the street or track.

    Who's to say what's necessary for the street? I've found that the spring rates on a coilover set-up allow for much firmer handling without as much of the harsh ride from comparable lowering springs. A Torque Arm instead of a hard-bushed UCA may produce less NVH and controls pinion angle better. A Watts Link offers more precise axle control than an adjustable Panhard Bar, and allows for rear roll center adjustment. My suspension was a one-and-done project that cost plenty but saved me from experiencing the stories of those that started small, remain unhappy, and continue tinkering and spending. Haven't seen a track day yet but track capable with a few simple adjustments.
     
  8. noldevin

    noldevin Active Member Established Member

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    The coilover tire clearance issue is why many opt to not run a true coilover in the rear, and many kits just give you what's needed to run a coilover spring in the stock location with a height adjuster.

    If a torque arm really offered the best traction, I think more drag racers would be using them.
     
  9. Stangra

    Stangra New Member

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    I can't speak to what the drag racers are doing to solve traction problems. I know torque arms are very prevalent among road course and autocross racers. I know that my S197 Mustang without one was incapable of handling the use of throttle in anything resembling a corner. And I now feel confident that I can apply more torque to the ground with the addition of a supercharger soon.
     
  10. clinton2003

    clinton2003 Active Member Established Member

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    hooking on the street with a short sidewall is extremely tough. even at the track in more optimal traction, its very tough to hook on 20's.

    if you want to give your car the best chance, get an 18" tire setup, and go with a 295/45 or 305/45r18 to give you some sidewall and tire choice. like has been said the short sidewall of the 20's make it rather difficult.

    if you look how a full slick or pro radial type tire works, you can look at a dragster. watch how the tire wraps up and then springs forward. the sidewall takes the shock of the power and buffers it to the ground.

    basically like the difference from dumping the clutch, to letting it out fairly quickly...

    to get the car to hook on 20's will take some extensive fine tuning to the car. adjustable shocks up front, out back, adjustable control arms up top, down low. figuring out of angles, and then lots of testing... Its a process.


     
  11. clinton2003

    clinton2003 Active Member Established Member

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    Sounds cool. Did you have aftermarket components before? or you just slap all that stuff on replacing the stock stuff?

    It seems like it could be good for road racing, but i agree i dont think i would ever think of running it. It removes the upper control arm. so now instead of having a solid moulded mount that hold it, you now are bolting on a rear cover, and drilling holes.... There also is no Adjustability making it harder to get your angles correct.
    You just are hoping it holds the initial shock load that drag racing provides, vs the smoother addition of power that road racers will see.

    we are just using adjustable stuff and getting it put into a spot where everything will work well. If you take the time with your stock stuff im sure you could get the same out of it as would a torque are.
     
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  12. *Predator*

    *Predator* Member Established Member

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    Need the back tight and the front lose so what springs or spring strut combo is anyone using to loosen up the front? I had a couple people who have some pretty fast cars take a look at it, and while their cars are fox bodies and older cars they said the front end is WAY too tight..
     
  13. clinton2003

    clinton2003 Active Member Established Member

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    Most people seem to use Strange single adjustable struts up front, and viking double adjustable shocks out back. which gives quite a bit of adjustability.

    On my car i have some Boss 302 struts up front full lose, and viking double adjustable in the rear and have had good luck at track. Haven't had the patience to get it to hook that well on the street. No need to be using that kind of power on the street anyway
     
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  14. *Predator*

    *Predator* Member Established Member

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    Viking warrior shocks?
     
  15. clinton2003

    clinton2003 Active Member Established Member

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    there is warrior and crusader. I have the warrior's but need the crusaders... ha.

    you would be fine with the warrior's im sure.

    Viking Performance
     
  16. Stangra

    Stangra New Member

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    I started with a bone stock Mustang... but my suspension mod was anything but "just slap all that stuff on". I drove the car for years considering my options. Watching, asking questions, learning, listening, researching, and developing an understanding of what I wanted to accomplish and how. My goal has never been to build a drag racer, but to improve the traction problem that's built into the S197 chassis' suspension and improve handling for the street with track capabilities.

    Ok, for a competitive, track dedicated drag car a Torque Arm may not be your first choice, but a car like the OP's close to stock with a few mods it would make a huge difference vs. the stock (or mod) upper link geometry

    What angles are you needing to correct but unable to after installing a torque arm? The stock (or adjustable) upper arm is only there to control the axle from rolling and it holds the correct pinion angle... when the car isn't moving, otherwise it's changing every time the car moves up or down. Torque arm holds near perfect pinion angle at all times, and moves those useful axle anti-rolling forces way forward. A lot of guys will throw stiff springs, shocks, and bushings at the car trying to fix characteristics caused by the stock suspension geometry, end up with a shopping cart ride on irregular road surfaces, and believe that in order to handle & grip well, the car must ride that way.

    In my experience a Torque arm, coil-overs, & Watts link = dramatically better grip, minimal loss of ride quality, room for fatter tires, & excellent handling. So much so that I need to relearn how to drive my car, it's abilities now sometimes exceed my mine. There are Mustangs pushing 800rwhp on the street or track running Torque Arms, and a these levels the more torque and power the more effective they are.
     

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