C-head swap....emissions equipment?

[J.Rovirosa]

Seems like almost everyone that has done this swap has ditched the egr and evap parts for one reason or another. For those of us that want or need to retain the factory emissions equipment, can the '96-'98 parts be used with the "C" intake and heads? Pretty sure that at least the headers and egr tube are different, but what else is or isn't compatible?

 

[4vRedone]

Im interested as well.

 

[mwolson]

You can hook up the Terminator EGR and evap systems to the stock 96-98 systems. Download this document to get a complete picture of the Terminator vacuum system: http://www.accutach.com/Documents/VacuumHarnessSchematicR2.pdf

You may need to do some re-piping for the EGR.

The Terminator exhaust manifolds are not drilled/tapped for the SAI system, but that wouldn't be too hard to do. Some brackets will probably have to be fabricated.

 

[J.Rovirosa]

Thanks Mark....that helps.

 

[Chris.94GT]

Is there a provision where if you use a newer engine you smog based on the newer one? If so you wouldn't need the factory air injection and crap.

 

[mwolson]

Is there a provision where if you use a newer engine you smog based on the newer one? If so you wouldn't need the factory air injection and crap.

Yes, but then you need to use a Terminator PCM, and a returnless fuel system which will cause a lot of wiring modifications.

You also have to go to a smog ref where they inspect the car to make sure it has ALL of the emissions related equipment of the donor car. It is a lot like a proctology exam. If it does, you get a BAR sticker that says it needs ot be tested like a Terminator. I just went through this with my son's Honda CRX with an engine swap. PITA!

 

[MLS]

I kept all of my emmissions equip, I have jba shorty headers with the SAInjection tubing.

 

[IronSnake]

for 96-98 with a swap, you just use 96-98 headers to hook the SAI up. And the EGR just uses the different tube from a terminator and it hooks up. All the solenoids can be used and routed in. All of my stuff if deleted though.

 

[mwolson]

for 96-98 with a swap, you just use 96-98 headers to hook the SAI up. And the EGR just uses the different tube from a terminator and it hooks up. All the solenoids can be used and routed in. All of my stuff if deleted though.

I thought the Terminator exhaust ports were a lot bigger than the B head exhaust ports. I guess a port match would help that, though...

 

[98 Saleen Cobra]

I have all my emissions equipment still from my swap.. If you want to buy them shoot me a PM.. This includes EGR, all the solonoids and the EGR tube...

 

[mustang8650]

subscribing....I also am interested in keeping my 98 cobra emissions equipment, just in case I ever have to get tested around here....

I have C heads and currently looking into running a 99 lower with a 98 cobra upper...if I use my stock 98 cobra exhaust manifolds I'm assuming all of my emissions equipment should just bolt up? I have the exhaust gaskets for the C head, I held them up to the 98 cobra exhaust manifolds and they didn't seem to be too far off, more or less just a hair less wide on each side...I can't find any photos with 96-98 cobra exhaust manifolds next to a 03-04 cobra exhaust manifolds, I hear the 03-04's flow better but looks like they don't have the provisions for the emissions on the rear of the exhaust manifolds either....wondering if drill and tap job on a 03-04 set is worth it or just stick with the 98 exhaust manifolds



...this is the closest thread I've seen talking about this after 2-3 hours worth of searching forums, I'm all googled out lol, but its worth it for the learning experience and learned much information on the way....

 

[Mustang Matt]

I can't find any photos with 96-98 cobra exhaust manifolds next to a 03-04 cobra exhaust manifolds

B-head

C-head

They're different but not that different.

 

[mustang8650]

Hi Mustang Matt, when I looked at my old heads vs my new heads I'm seeing the same thing as your picture posted there, I agree they don't look all that far off, the pictures I couldn't find were the 2 different style exhaust manifolds next to each other....the 03-04 cobra manifolds look like they have a tad more girth and possibly better flow than the 98 exhaust manifolds I got but hard to tell just lookin at 03/04 exh. manifold pictures without a set of the others beside them to judge the difference by. Was throwing the idea around of porting my 98 manifolds a tad to match the opening of the C heads a little better, you guys think this would work ok? If anyone knows any potential downsides or thinks I'd take a big hit in power doing this let me know.....love to hear if anyone has tried this and it turned out fine....

 

[ZD302GT]

Buy the adapter they are selling on here so you can use the B upper intake. That should solve some problems

 

[mwolson]

I'd do a port match on the B exhaust manifolds and be done with it.

The only other thing to worry about is alignment of the EGR plumbing, specifically to the EGR valve. Since the C heads don't use IMRC plates is the intake manifold a little lower? Or are the intake ports a little higher on the C heads?

I know it's controversial, but I'd leave the EGR system in place and active as you plan. Even if it takes some fabrication. Ford would not go to the expense of adding it in if it weren't of value. And it doesn't affect WOT operation, only part throttle efficiency, so there's no performance gain to be had by deleting it.

 

[mustang8650]

Buy the adapter they are selling on here so you can use the B upper intake. That should solve some problems

I plan on doing that, USMC53CHIEF is going to let me know when his guy has some adapters ready, today we were mocking things up and it looks like all of this is going to be possible if we use that B upper intake on that 99 lower. I'm not sure on the height of things how it'll stack up just yet, I need to ask him how thick the adapter is going to be then could get a little more accurate measurements, we figure there may be some tube bending involved if its off much, I saw the intakes are close in height but not sure the IMRC's were included in that measurement.

I'd do a port match on the B exhaust manifolds and be done with it.

The only other thing to worry about is alignment of the EGR plumbing, specifically to the EGR valve. Since the C heads don't use IMRC plates is the intake manifold a little lower? Or are the intake ports a little higher on the C heads?

I know it's controversial, but I'd leave the EGR system in place and active as you plan. Even if it takes some fabrication. Ford would not go to the expense of adding it in if it weren't of value. And it doesn't affect WOT operation, only part throttle efficiency, so there's no performance gain to be had by deleting it.

We held up the 98 manifolds to the C heads this evening and we think we can do a portmatch on the manifolds, my brother thats helping wants to see me get some 03/04 cobra manifolds and just have them tapped with the emissions fittings but first I'd have to figure out who around my area could handle something like that. Might have a little more flow and be a perfect match but not so sure I agree with him that it would be less work lol.

The car is going to be a 5.0 stroker turbo car so I have a question about this emission system under boost, will there be issues with say 15-20lbs of boost with the emission system that any has seen? On my 1986 GT twinturbo car I took the emissions off but had to install a one-way valve on the PCV fitting on the lower intake, until I had the one way valve it there anything over 10lbs of boost had oil shooting all over. Keeping all emissions on, well I've never tried that and I won't act like I know what will happen when it sees boost (ex. pcv and egr mounted on intake).

Guess my reasoning for keeping emissions is I don't know if I'll ever get them around here, or I could move to where they have em, don't wanna deal with it later as I already have one car that has no emissions (the 86GT turbo car) and I can only pray it would pass emmisions lol.

 

[mwolson]

The car is going to be a 5.0 stroker turbo car so I have a question about this emission system under boost, will there be issues with say 15-20lbs of boost with the emission system that any has seen? On my 1986 GT twinturbo car I took the emissions off but had to install a one-way valve on the PCV fitting on the lower intake, until I had the one way valve it there anything over 10lbs of boost had oil shooting all over. Keeping all emissions on, well I've never tried that and I won't act like I know what will happen when it sees boost (ex. pcv and egr mounted on intake).

Guess my reasoning for keeping emissions is I don't know if I'll ever get them around here, or I could move to where they have em, don't wanna deal with it later as I already have one car that has no emissions (the 86GT turbo car) and I can only pray it would pass emmisions lol.

SAI and EGR only use pre-boost vacuum for control, so large boost is no issue there.

SAI primarily pumps extra O2 in during warm up to help heat up the cats faster. Since it doesn't turn on at WOT ever and it is only adding air to the exhaust, so that shouldn't be an issue.

EGR only operates at part throttle, never at WOT, so boost won't be an issue there.

The only place high boost is an issue is with the PCV system. Most of the high boost guys I know use a high quality aircraft check valve such as the Andair Part # 05-00719 with no bleed. Check it out here: ANDAIR CHECK VALVE from Aircraft Spruce

 

[mustang8650]

SAI and EGR only use pre-boost vacuum for control, so large boost is no issue there.

SAI primarily pumps extra O2 in during warm up to help heat up the cats faster. Since it doesn't turn on at WOT ever and it is only adding air to the exhaust, so that shouldn't be an issue.

EGR only operates at part throttle, never at WOT, so boost won't be an issue there.

The only place high boost is an issue is with the PCV system. Most of the high boost guys I know use a high quality aircraft check valve such as the Andair Part # 05-00719 with no bleed. Check it out here: ANDAIR CHECK VALVE from Aircraft Spruce

Great information there, thanks Mwolson, so basically will just have to do the same thing I did to the 86 car and install a one way valve into the pcv system. Thanks for the link to the Andair part, if I need that I'll pick one of those up as well, here is what I used on the 86, its worked so far, have had one of these fittings on there for about 7 yrs now, might try one of these first since I got 3-4 of them left laying around, were about a buck or 2 each... Check Valves | U.S. Plastic Corp.

 

[mustang8650]

Mwolson, from reading around on the forums here you seem to know alot about emissions, but I also saw something where you were talking about deleted IMRC's, just noticed you said ...

"I don't know how to fool the PCM into thinking deleted IMRCs are still there with resistors, but I think that is a really bad idea. If the PCM thinks the EGR is there, and adds the spark advance from the table, your chances of detonation will go way up."

When I noticed you talking about that I started looking around for info on what to do when you have C heads and deleted the IMRC's, can the IMRC's just be turned off in the tune? I would assume I wouldn't want the PCM thinking they are there and using tables and making adjustments based on that making my car act all funny...

I tuned my 86 GT TT myself with a DFI Gen 7 system, was a learning curve for sure, and I know I still don't come close to understanding all of it like the big boys in this field, but one thing I did learn the hard way was one little lookup table based on whatever variable that isn't just right is enough to throw the whole tune off...for example timing and fuel based off of ECT temps, IAT temps etc....I imagine the stock PCM is even more complex given emissions and IMRC lookup tables and other lookup tables a DFI doesn't even have. I just now read one guy deleted his IMRC's and it idled rough at 700 rpm's with AC on and the revs came down slow when AC off...

I was thinking of getting a tuning solution for the stock PCM and tuning this thing myself to gain experience and knowledge etc...now I'm second guessing whether I'm gonna get in over my head doing that, I'd have alot closer tune to start out with for this car, but at the rate I'm learning about this car its making me realize how much I don't know LOL, time to read read read and have a professional tuner lined up if I fall astray....

 

[mwolson]

Great information there, thanks Mwolson, so basically will just have to do the same thing I did to the 86 car and install a one way valve into the pcv system. Thanks for the link to the Andair part, if I need that I'll pick one of those up as well, here is what I used on the 86, its worked so far, have had one of these fittings on there for about 7 yrs now, might try one of these first since I got 3-4 of them left laying around, were about a buck or 2 each... Check Valves | U.S. Plastic Corp.

I've seen some people who run those check valves as well. They say they work very well. I get a little nervous because they are so cheap, but if it works, why waste the money on the Andair unit. But I have one of the Andair units, waiting for the new motor, and it is very solidly made.