Brake Fluids, What Brands Are easy For You To Find?

[oldmodman]

I have been using Castrol GT Dot 4

It seemed a good compromise between crappy off the rack Dot 3 and the incredibly expensive and hard to find European racing fluids.

Anyone have an opinion on, or have you used any Dot 5.1 fluid?

 

[46-062]

The best street fluid is Ate Super Blue / Ate Typ 200 DOT 4. It has very good dry and wet boiling points and will last 50% longer between flushes.

I spoke with an engineer at Continental Teves (USA) and he explained that Ate Super Blue / Ate Type 200 has the ability to hold more moisture in suspension with less performance loss than any other brake fluid. This is extremely important in street applications and why you can easily extend your flush intervals. It's NOT about how little moisture brake fluid attracts, it's about how well brake fluid copes with moisture.

I buy mine from OG Racing on line for $13.95 per liter (note website says 500 ml in description. It's a 1000 ml / 1 liter metal can. They sell a lot of it so their stock is fresh.

Compare the dry and wet numbers:

536F Dry boiling point
395F Wet boiling point

This fluid exceeds Federal standards for DOT 5.1 of 518F dry and 375F wet.


Compare to Motul RBF 600 DOT 5.1

617F Dry boiling point - great for flying into Turn 9 at Willow Springs at 170MPH.
400F Wet boiling point - only 5F higher than Ate Super Blue and the only number that counts for street use.

Motul RBF 600 5.1 costs $31.95 / 500ml from OG Racing. That's $63.90 per liter vs. Ate super Blue at $13.95 per liter. Way to much for an extra 5F.

Castrol GT DOT 4:

509F Dry boiling point

311F West boiling point

Ate has an 84F higher wet boiling point than Castrol.

Super Blue and Typ 200 are the same except for color. Switch colors to know when you've bled out the old fluid. Federal requirements for brake fluid include an amber color, so technically Super Blue doesn't meet US Government standards.

Ate Super Blue /Typ 200 comes in sealed metal cans, so the shelf life of an unopened can is much better than fluid in plastic bottles.

Valvoline used to make a pretty good fluid, but downgraded the specifications. Unfortunately, the last time I checked the website, Valvoline still had the old datasheet with better numbers displayed which do not match the new lower specs on the product description.

 

[shadyninja]

I've used the red/blue fluid in my motorcycle. Good stuff

 

[46-062]

I've used the red/blue fluid in my motorcycle. Good stuff

Huh?

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Amsoil got into the racing style brake fluid market. Their DOT 4 fluid is spec'd

580*F dry
410*F wet

Amsoil DOT 4

However, it's not cheap. Dealer cost is still $10.50 per 12 oz. bottle (355 ml.)

They do have a more affordable DOT 3 blend. $5.50 per 12 oz. bottle (355 ml.)

525*F dry
313*F wet

Amsoil DOT 3

I also have a review from a extended session road race EVO owner who states in his review that Amsoil DOT 4 beats Motul.

Thread link - page one of that thread *seems to be having trouble on the server*

Thread link page #2 - works fine. Still many posts where he was offered sponsorship by other companies, yet told them no. He would continue to run Amsoil DOT 4.

He comments that with Motul, he had to bleed the brakes every event (or spongy pedal). With Amsoil DOT 4, only every 3-4 weekends.

 

[oldmodman]

Thanks 46-062.

Very good info on the ATE. I will be ordering a couple of cans since the metal cans yield a long shelf life.

Isn't ATE what Carlos is using?

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Here is the review from page one of that thread, just in case it goes down again.

I've been tracking my car for about 3.5 years now. I've got about 35 or so events under my belt. I've went through 3 sets of rotors, 5 sets of front pads, countless nights of brake bleeds, multiple brake fluid flushes, etc. I've had weekends with a solid pedal, a spongy pedal, I've cut session short because of hot fluid and even went off track because of boiled fluid and a total and complete loss of brakes.
I'll detail out the changes I've made over the years, what has worked, what hasn't and where I'm at now. Probably way more detail than is needed, but hopefully it will come in handy for someone.
Bottom line; just switched to AMSOIL DOT4 fluid and loving it!

2006

Stock fluid
Stock pads
Stock rotors

I started very stock. Stock brakes and stock suspension with 305whp. I ran stock everything really - with just an exhaust and AMS Tune. Just learning how to make my way around the track. I slowly moved to an aggressive street pad in the front - PFZ's (Performance Friction Z Pads).

2007

Motul fluid
PF Z / PFC01 front pads
255 RA1's

At this point I flushed out the stock fluid to run Motul brake fluid. Other upgrades included some some Swift springs and a RSB to help it turn, RA1's and a retune for 315whp. Braking was much more consistent with the fluid and better pads. Late 2007 I again needed new pads so I stuck with the PF line and went with PFC01's which is a track-only pad I would switch in for track weekends. WOW; what a difference. I had to relearn how to drive the car as it was very easy to bring ABS into play. Overall, the PFC01's might have been too aggressive for me. I usually had a good pedal, but it would get spongy for me toward the end of 20-30min sessions on some tracks. I figured it was normal.

2008

Motul fluid
Hawk DTC60 pads
Goodridge SS lines
SP Performance front slotted rotors (rear stock)
Front Ti backing shims
Forge Air Cooling Ducts
255 NT01's

Lots of upgrades. Full coilovers, 255 NT01's for tires. Car weighed in at 3400lbs in April. Brakewise I switched to hawk DTC60's and added a bunch of other goodies. I started running TT (Time Trial) events to definitely running the car harder. I had several events where I would feel a spongy pedal, so I'd back off and run some cooldown laps to be safe. I accelerated my brake bleeding to after every weekend event. Almost always had a little air coming out of the fronts.

2009

Motul fluid - (through July/2009)
AMSOIL DOT4 fluid - (as of Aug/2009)
Hawk DTC60 pads
Goodridge SS lines
'Blank' replacement front rotors (rear stock)
Front Ti backing shims
Forge Air Cooling Ducts
245 Hoosier R6

Pulled the car down to ~3280lbs and running either 310whp or 350whp depending on the event. I started trailoring the car this year as well, and that means I'm pushing it that much harder with the confidence of towing it home...just in case.
Mid-year I had a few offs because of boiled fluid. I think this was partially due to lack of airflow in the routing of my forge cooling ducts. But I really think the Motul should have handled it. One of these was a very scary departure where I left the track at 94mph (via traqmate) and was just fortunate there was enough runoff to slide to a stop.
I switched the car to AMSOIL engine oil. See thread HERE for more info. I also learned they had a DOT4 brake fluid that was similar to Motul. Since I had some issues already with losing my brakes and/or a soft pedal and the constant need to bleed, I figured I'd give it a shot as the specs were very similar. So I called up our local forum expert - Andy (apagan01) on the forums - and placed an order.

My first event with the AMSOIL DOT4 fluid was last weekend at BlackHawk Farms Raceway in Northern IL - nearly Wisconsin. Blackhawk is known as a brutal track on the brakes so it was going to be a great test. It was also forecasted to be around 95+ with a heat index of 105+.
Not once the entire weekend did I have an issue with the pedal. I ran full 15-20min sessions (4-5 per day) and I ran them hard. I would have usually had a slightly soft pedal and would have spent Sat evening bleeding the brakes - but I didn't bother. Instead just had a and relaxed.

Stay tuned for a detailed review on the install/flush process and my first track weekend.

Had another track weekend - a 3 day event this time. Brakes performed flawlessly.

Normally I would bleed the brakes somewhere in the middle, but with the AMSOIL DOT4 brake fluid, I have not had the need to bleed excessively. That's a real time saver! I'm not sure if it takes on less moisture or what.

I really feel the AMSOIL DOT4 brake fluid gives me a stiffer pedal than the Motul that I used to use. Because of that, I find it easier to modulate towards threshold braking and not use ABS. That might sound weird, but it's resulted in much smoother braking zones on the track, less tire scrubbing and ultimately better corner speeds and lower overall times. A good setup makes the driver confident and that confidence allows you to push the car harder.
Thanks again for turning me onto a great product!

 

[46-062]

Here is the review from page one of that thread, just in case it goes down again.

We get it. You're an AMSOIL dealer.

Hate to burst your pitch, but that "review" isn't worth the bandwidth needed to read it. No back to back testing on the same day at the same track with only one variable - just the the brake fluid.

Ate is an OEM brake system supplier for VW-Audi, Mercedes Benz and many other automobile manufacturers. I think they have slightly more knowledge and experience with brake fluid than AMSOIL

For street use, the wet boiling point is the only usable measure of performance. AMSOIL DOT 3 has a WBP of only 313F and costs more than Ate Super Blue with a WBP of395F.

AMSOIL DOT 4 WBP is only 15F higher than Ate Super Blue, yet it costs three times as much.

For track use, I'd go with what professional race car teams in NASCAR and other series use: Castrol SRF.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Your assumption that I'm trying to discredit a great fluid like ATE is upsetting. I've actually used it with great results on the street. You currently have 62 posts here, I have over 5,000. It would be wise to see what I have contributed to this forum before writing me off.

I was simply adding that Amsoil had something new that I was trying next. I have no affiliation with the poster who created that thread @ EVOM forums, nor does he receive anything special from Amsoil beyond anyone else buying ability. I have no idea who he is and the thread in question was discovered by a simple Google search. His setup from 2008-2009 was exactly the same with the exception of brake fluid and tires. However, your assumption that his opinion holds no water when he has nothing to gain from it, now that's unfair to say the least. The summary of his comments was he has far greater results from Amsoil DOT 4 than Motul. He bleeds far less, wastes less fluid, and far greater pedal feel overall. You make your own decisions, I was simply sharing what was found.

Castrol SRF @ $70-80.00 per liter is quiet pricey. Most weekend warriors wouldn't invest that much into brake fluid unless they were diehard track competitors when sufficient fluids can be had for 1/3rd the price.

 

[46-062]

Your assumption that I'm trying to discredit a great fluid like ATE is upsetting. I've actually used it with great results on the street. You currently have 62 posts here, I have over 5,000. It would be wise to see what I have contributed to this forum before writing me off.

I was simply adding that Amsoil had something new that I was trying next. I have no affiliation with the poster who created that thread @ EVOM forums, nor does he receive anything special from Amsoil beyond anyone else buying ability. I have no idea who he is and the thread in question was discovered by a simple Google search. His setup from 2008-2009 was exactly the same with the exception of brake fluid and tires. However, your assumption that his opinion holds no water when he has nothing to gain from it, now that's unfair to say the least. The summary of his comments was he has far greater results from Amsoil DOT 4 than Motul. He bleeds far less, wastes less fluid, and far greater pedal feel overall. You make your own decisions, I was simply sharing what was found.

Castrol SRF @ $70-80.00 per liter is quiet pricey. Most weekend warriors wouldn't invest that much into brake fluid unless they were diehard track competitors when sufficient fluids can be had for 1/3rd the price.

1. You didn't deny being an Amsoil dealer.

2. I never suggest the author of the thread you quote was affiliated with AMSOIL.

3. The results obtained by the author of the thread are not valid simply because the "testing" wasn't done correctly to determine whether AMSOIL brake fluid is better or worse than any other.

4. AMSOIL DOT 3 has lower performance in the only valid measure of as street fluid (wet boiling point) than Ate, yet it costs more.

5. AMSOIL DOT 4 has only a marginal improvement in wet boiling point over Ate yet cost a lot more.

6. Even if the "test" result in the quoted thread were scientifically valid, they apply only to track use. The OP did not ask about the best track day brake fluid.

7. Every AMSOIL dealer on the planet uses "third parties" to shill his products. I have no problem with that. You just need to read more carefully and be a lot smarter in selecting material to support AMSOIL. Anybody with half a brain wouldn't buy AMSOIL brake fluid based on the quoted thread.

8. The link to the thread was fine. Your copying it here for those of us who couldn't get the working link to work was very obvious.

9. Explain to me why anyone should buy more expensive and lower WBP AMSOIL DOT 3 over Ate SuperBlue DOT 4.

10. Why would I need to read any or all of your other 5,000+ posts? The one I read showed me quite enough to write you off.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Enjoy your stay, you won't last here long with that attitude. Are you kin to Mobeydick?

1. That's not a secret here at SVT Performance, so no denial required.

2. Never actually implied you did, I simply meant he's an independent reviewer of Amsoil DOT 4.

3. It's OK, his discoveries that Amsoil DOT 4 worked better for him than Motul can remain his secret.

4., 5., & 6. So what, Castrol GT/LMA is most likely the best brake fluid commonly found over the counter (i.e. in the auto parts store - doesn't require shipping) unless you have a performance shop nearby that stocks something better.

7. Fortunately, I use solid proof. Thread Link, No "shilling" required.

8. It didn't work all day yesterday, it works today. It may not work tomorrow.

9. I would never recommend Amsoil DOT 3 over ATE Superblue. That's pure ignorance.

10. The reason, you would most likely change your mind about me, well, unless you are indeed related to Mobeydick.

 

[SID297]

Lol at trying to call out UB on being biased.



I have used Ate in my L. Put it in a few years ago and it's still clear. Great water absorption resistance.

 

[oldmodman]

I ordered a liter of both the Blue and Amber ATE fluids. Thanks for letting me know where to get it.

 

[46-062]

E
9. I would never recommend Amsoil DOT 3 over ATE Superblue. That's pure ignorance.

Then why the hell even mention it after my post containing the specifications and price of Ate Super Blue / Typ 200?

I'll change my mind about you after you improve your sales techniques.

 

[46-062]

I ordered a liter of both the Blue and Amber ATE fluids. Thanks for letting me know where to get it.

When you flush it, it will turn from dirty blue to green to amber and you know when the old Super Blue is completely flushed. (Or dirty amber to green to clean blue.)

For future reference, NAPA carries Pentosin DOT 4. It's a German brand that's OEM fill for several manufacturers. It's got good specs and is cheaper than Ate and you can even get 5 liter jugs. When I found it on the NAPA website, I noticed the jug was different than the jug on the Pentosin website.

The NAPA dealer called the NAPA warehouse and confirmed the stock they had had the old label. The label Pentosin told be was at least 5 years old. I was not going to buy 5+ year old brake fluid in a plastic jug! (Continental-Teves confirmed the shelf life of a sealed METAL can of Ate is 5 years.)

Nobody at NAPA knew brake fluid has a shelf life. Not the dealer, the warehouse manager and even corporate! Made me feel all warm and fuzzy about NAPA. (Well, I did know they hired the Teutels as spokesmen before I walked through the door.)

The Pentosin distributor is a really nice guy, but he wasn't aware that brake fluid has a shelf life and Pentosin in Germany wouldn't tell him or me. The distributor did arrange to exchange the old fluid in the NAPA warehouse wuith fresh stock and I got a 5 liter jug.

NAPA doesn't sell much Pentosin brake fluid and I would only buy it a second time if I knew how old the stock was.

Back to Ate from OG Racing because Ate (Continental-Teves) confirms a 5 year shelf life and also confirms that OG buys a lot of it so I know it's fresh.

 

[46-062]

7. Fortunately, I use solid proof. Thread Link, No "shilling" required.

Oh, I almost forgot. When did the unscientific testing of an unknown weekend boy-racer become SOLID PROOF?:lol:

Look up the word anecdotal.:beer:

Better yet, your "Thread Link" connects to a thread about motor oil for GT500s. The subject here is brake fluid.

Despite your attitude, i have decided to spend my valuable time and bandwidth in an attempt to increase your sales.

1. Never get into an argument with a potential customer.

2. Never use 3rd party testing or reviews unless you comprehend them. Your choice of AMSOIL DOT 4 review was piss-poor for the reasons I mentioned. If the reviewer was Jeff Gordon or Fernando Alonso or an ex-Ford brake engineer, you'd have something. If the a bunch of amateurs who race with your reviewer all switched to AMSOIL, you'd have something. If 90% of the local SCCA chapter switched to AMSOIL, that would be really cool. One nobody who didn't use scientific methodology in in testing mean jack.

3. Why don't you provide a few free bottles of AMSOIL DOT 4 to a local SCCA chapter or any other amateur racing group on the condition that each member write a note about his experience with your product? Give away twenty bottles, collect 20 comments. If only half liked AMSOIL better, you could say, "After trying AMSOIL DOT 4 racing brake fluid at open track day at XYZ raceway, ten members of SCCA chapter preferred it to their old brand!"

4. Learn the art of underselling. You oversell like a cheap streetwalker and don't even know it. "Ate is a great fluid. AMSOIL has a DOT 4 fluid that several of my customers use on the track. it's more expensive so it's not for everybody, but the guys on the track swear by it and you might want to give it a try."

5. Don't give out the specs or price until somebody asks.

6. Always identify yourself as an Amsoil Dealer when your posts contain information or opinions about AMSOIL. If you don't, somebody like me who doesn't know you from Adam will figure it out and think you're a dick like every other snake oil selling AMSOIL Dealer.

7. I happen to believe AMSOIL products are very high quality but have never purchased any because of the multi-dick-level marketing scheme the company chose to embrace.

8. You haven't done anything to change the image of the Dick AMSOIL Dealer. Try harder.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Lol at trying to call out UB on being biased.

I know, right!

I have no time to argue, on to answer more engine lubrication questions.

 

[shadyninja]

7. I happen to believe AMSOIL products are very high quality but have never purchased any because of the multi-dick-level marketing scheme the company chose to embrace.
.

Ok I'll bite, what part about their marketing makes you unhappy ?
Let me guess you tried it and failed .

 

[46-062]

Ok I'll bite, what part about their marketing makes you unhappy ?
Let me guess you tried it and failed .

How could I fail as an AMSOIL representative without ever buying any AMSOIL products? Do you even bother reading the quotes you quote?

My biggest problem with AMSOIL is representatives who use anecdotal evidence as proof of product superiority and AMSOIL not stopping them.

 

[WutApex]

I've had good luck with Motul 600. There was only a $3 difference between ATE and Motul.

I thought that if you ran out of ATE i.e. At the track, it was bad to mix with another brand. And I didn't think that was an issue with Motul. any truth to this?