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Blown S197 vs. 1993 GT

Discussion in 'Road Kill Drive-Thru' started by Fox Fan, May 9, 2018.

  1. Fox Fan

    Fox Fan Average guy Established Member

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    Surprisingly Ozzy wanted to go from a roll. I told him it would benefit me more than him due to traction, but he said he'd already broken 2 5-speed transmissions (manuals) and didn't want to risk another. He had a nearly 300 lbs passenger. It was a 3v 4.6 with an edelbrock blower at 12 psi. He did not spray, and claims it should run ~500 rwhp. Something tells me that's just an estimate. He did not powershift. I was powershifting 3-4, and I did not brake boost.

    My car is a turbocharged '93 GT with a T56 and 3.73s on ET Street SS tires. I ran it on low boost at 7psi on a 363 with AFR205 heads and a very streetable sub 220 intake cam, and a quick-spooling GTS76 turbo. I'd imagine it would make in excess of 500rwhp there pretty easily with even close to optimum tune, but there's really no telling how much power is left on the table without access to a dyno or a track and tuning very conservatively (16-17* total timing and 11.5:1 AFR).

    Initially we went 3 times from 40. This was a decent spot in 2nd gear for me. On the first race, I honked it off, and got a pretty decent jump. He missed the 2-3 shift and I ran away.

    2nd race, I gave him the hit, he got out on me by a car. I missed 3rd but recovered decently quickly. He had 3 cars. In 3rd gear I stopped his pull and in 4th, I made up 2 cars and starting to pass when we had to let out for traffic.

    3rd race was pretty good for both of us. Again, I gave him the hit. He hopped out about a 1/2 - 3/4 car while my turbo spooled, then I granny shifted to 3rd to ensure I wouldn't miss again, and pulled about a car. Shifted to 4th and put a couple more cars on him. We pulled over and talked. We both had a lot of fun, and agreed that my car was stronger but that the races were pretty close. I asked him if he wanted me to take his passenger, a mutual friend, and go for another run or two. He agreed and wanted to go from a 70 roll.

    Starting in 3rd for both of these runs made it nice because 70 is a pretty good spot between 4k - 4500 RPM, I'd say. The turbo spooled quickly, and the powershift is easy. With ~300 lbs less in his car and that much more in mine, I expected to lose these races, but I guess the quickness spooling made enough difference. Both of these races were fender to fender in 3rd. He was shifting at 6, and since I had a few hundred more RPM to go and wasn't granny-shifting, I nosed out before the power-shift into 4th and pulled ever so slightly until letting out with his bumper at my door. It was the best race of the day. We pulled over, chatted it out again, complimented each other on the rides, and swapped the passenger back over to his car before going our separate ways.

    I was absolutely thrilled at the results. Ozzy told me that car had been neck and neck with a hellcat and a ZL1. Is 500rwhp really feasible for that blower at 12 psi? Is that much power really going to make an S197 run that close to a ZL1 and Hellcat? Regardless, I was really happy with my car. Keep in mind that I have a conservative base timing table that has never been tuned and was on the lowest boost setting of ~7psi. It might take quite a bit more timing. This car is entirely self-tuned! So to have it perform well in action was just a blast!
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  2. Recon

    Recon Well-Known Member Established Member

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    I hope the 3V isn’t stock. 500 is a gamble on stock internals. Then a 500rwhp 3V hanging with a Hellcat and a ZL1, doubt it. But if his suspension is great, with some good tires, and depending on the nitrous shot it might happen.
    Coming from owner of 2 3V’s.


    Pick your poison.
     
  3. Fox Fan

    Fox Fan Average guy Established Member

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    He claimed 750 on nitrous. I guess it's not stock internals. I'll ask. He also claimed that it was running with those cars on the highway without the spray. Thanks for the info.
     
  4. Fox Fan

    Fox Fan Average guy Established Member

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    Information still trickling in from my buddy. "fully built internals and cams. Ported and polished heads." It was tuned and did dyno ~500 rwhp. It has a 150 wet shot, but the 750 number came from the fact that's on race gas with a more aggressive tune + the nitrous.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  5. Kiohtee

    Kiohtee On3 Is ChEaP jUnK Established Member

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    A couple things here, none of which are necessarily your fault/of your doing:

    1. Roll racing from 60+ in 500rwhp is ghey. Totally unnecessary and laughable.
    2. No ~500rwhp 3V is running with a ZL1/Hellcat anything. I constantly puppy-kicked 3Vs with my old 100 shot 5.0, and I probably would have had my hands full with a ZL1/Hellcat. However, the older ZL1 cars are pigs, so depending on the year and driver, I wouldn't discount him completely on that claim.
     
  6. Fox Fan

    Fox Fan Average guy Established Member

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    Yep, that makes a lot of sense. Older ZL1 makes 580, and 500 rwhp is probably about at the crank. He was probably running one of those. Thanks!
     
  7. Grabber

    Grabber Yep... Established Member

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    Few things to add, as both a former full bolt-on 5.0 owner and an owner of two blown 3V's.

    Stock internals can handle 500 RWHP ALL day; depending on your fuel and tune. I made over 460 RWHP on a 3V with over 50,000 miles at that power level and beat ever living **** out of the car. It ran like a champ.

    Now, if he truly had a fully built 3V, he should have wrecked you. With blowers and suspension with traction, they are good for low-mid 11's. With a fully built motor, setup properly with supporting mods, high 10's. My guess is this guy is over estimating what his car does and trying to blow smoke up your ass.

    Your car seems very stout for the mods and I bet it is a blast to drive.

    Good run OP.
     
  8. Fox Fan

    Fox Fan Average guy Established Member

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    Thanks, Grabber. I'm enjoying it so much!

    The 4.6 is fully built. My buddy knows his stuff as both he and Ozzy are professional mechanics at a dealership in town. They tear down motors all the time, and they're pretty good buddies who wouldn't lie to me. I didn't know in my OP that they'd actually had it on a dyno with a known tuner in this area. By fully built, they were just talking about the engine, though. As to the suspension and the rest, I don't know, but traction was not an issue for either of us in these races. As far as a high10-low 11 second car wrecking anything, I like it when people underestimate my fox :D.

    Here's my '93:
    I took this pic on the Big Sur coastline just over a month ago:
    20180328_191455.jpg
    engine2.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
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  9. Fox Fan

    Fox Fan Average guy Established Member

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    Yesterday, we got back together and went to a local scale. His car weighed in at 3480 lbs after he removed some stuff, and mine weighed 3280 lbs. Both cars were full on fuel and sans driver on the scale. During the races, he was on low fuel and with our buddy in my car, I should have been close to 3800 lbs while he was around 3700. I still pulled on him. So I guess my power on low boost is right there in the 500 ballpark like his. Don't worry, though. I'll go to a dyno or track to figure it out for sure.

    Still, the numbers check out. He clarified that the ZL1 was a new 1LE model and that he did lose but it was as close as a race with mine.

    A 1LE ZL1 curb weight is 3840lbs (Car & Driver). Henessey dynoed one at 567rwhp. Call it 4k with driver. I weigh 3500 with driver. Power to weight at 500rwhp for me is almost identical to that of the ZL1. So, I know it's bench racing but I'd like to line up with one soon. If you have a stock ZL1, Hellcat, GT500, ZR1, or Z06 in the Monterey area, let's have some fun.
    weight.jpg
    2008 Blown GT weight.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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  10. Recon

    Recon Well-Known Member Established Member

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    Yep, the Roush spoiler is perfection on a 3V in my eyes. Might be biased though.


    Pick your poison.
     
  11. Fox Fan

    Fox Fan Average guy Established Member

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    Yeah, I didn't know the brand, but really noticed and liked that too.
     
  12. Recon

    Recon Well-Known Member Established Member

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    I would installed one on my GT if it wasn’t a low mile car and if I didn’t have a Roush already. What color is the interior?


    Pick your poison.
     
  13. Fox Fan

    Fox Fan Average guy Established Member

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    My interioris grey with black seats; recaros in front and black stocker in back. His is black, I think.
     
  14. Recon

    Recon Well-Known Member Established Member

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    White was a popular color for the rarer color interiors for the 3V’s. Friend of mine’s 3V is white with the tannish beige interior. Then there’s a white vert in my town, black top with red interior, I’m not much a vert guy but I like that car. Unfortunately, I’ve only seen pictures of the grey interior cars.


    Pick your poison.
     
  15. Fox Fan

    Fox Fan Average guy Established Member

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    I had a few runs, tonight. First, a 2015 mustang that claimed to have beaten Ozzy wanted a run from a roll. I was skeptical, but gave him the benefit of doubt and ran him. He wanted a 40 roll, too. I beat him handily after giving him the jump all 3 times.

    Then, a buddy of his named Brian in an SRT Challenger finally ran me from a dig. I was extremely disappointed in myself. After a pretty good launch, I missed 2nd, and there was no catching him. On the next run, I did the same damn thing. I made a pass alone to see what the hell was going on and hit every gear with a powershift... I guess I just can't do it when it counts. Damn!

    Finally, on the third run, I just granny shifted to make sure it didn't happen again. He was on an ET Street R, came out of the hole hard and got about 3 cars out through 2nd gear. In 3rd, I stopped his pull, and in 4th I pulled it back to his back bumper. He hit his hazards and I don't know why I just accepted that and let out. I'm really disappointed in myself. I need to get some seat time, get used to the shifting hard again, ignoring the other car, and focusing on driving my race.

    I was pretty surprised. The guy claimed only headers. We left the area we were racing, and I asked to see what would happen from a roll. Since he knew I beat his buddy, he took advantage on every run and jumped out without any indication. In the past, I haven't chased these kind of guys, but I really wanted to run him down. From a 40 roll, he caught me by surprise and just hammered it. He must've gotten about 3 cars on me again and I was thinking, "****!" But after successfully powershifted to 3rd, stopped his pull, hammered 4th, reeled him in, pulled about a car. I wasn't stopping; I wanted him to see my back bumper clearly. I wanted to put a bus on him. So, I shifted to 5th at around 135mph he after another car or two he must've let out. Hell yeah!

    In our second race, he wanted to go from about a 30-35 mph roll. I guess that's better for him. This was not a good spot for me, as my RPM dropped to about 3,000, but that last run gave me confidence as long as I got a good start. The turbo really wants 3,500 to spool quickly. So, I decided to brake boost to help myself out, but as I tried to "stage" it, he left! "****, again!" I let off the brake and hammered it. The tires spun and I got a little sideways, but didn't let out. Powershifted to 3rd, and again into 4th. I put him at my back bumper and then let out for traffic ahead.

    Overall, I was SO disappointed in my driving, but still pretty pleased with the stang. I'm just rusty as hell. After getting flustered in the first race, I gave him every advantage, and never drove a good race from start to finish. I suspect he had an auto, but if he was a manual, then props to him for his driving. Also, props to him for his wins, and I appreciated him for giving me so many chances. I know zhisel and others don't approve of highway roll ons, but I don't care. I like racing in just about any form. I'll race from a dig, or from a roll, or around a track. Win some, lose some, but having fun in all of them. My '93 has a Road racing suspension, and never launch like my '91, which has a full drag suspension with a mini-tub and 12" wheels. So, for the '93, it's nice to see how it compares with decent traction.
     
  16. Mike Morris

    Mike Morris Member Established Member

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    Nice car and nice races
     
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  17. Stang4u2nv

    Stang4u2nv New Member Established Member

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    Sick fox brother very clean. Props of the kills and i know the feeling of missing know you can destroy the other car. Thats racing for you.
     
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