Best (Brakes + Tires + Wheels) for Course track

Moaz

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Hello team,
Good day.
My Mustang is GT 2014 Brembo Pckgs with many mods in suspension.
However, I've few questions about:
1- For the Brakes, is I've the Brembo along with HWK Ceramic pads.
1.1 : Do I need to change the brakes or the pads to something better?
1.2 : For the Brake Lines, is it better to change it to the Stainless/braided lines ?
1.3 : is it recommended to change the brake fluid to DOT4?

2- For the wheel and tires, I'm running the stock ones,
2.1 For the tires, which size should I get in front and rear?
2.2 For the tires, what is the best tire for course tracks, taking into considerations that
I live in somewhere sroounded by desert making a lot of dust during the race, and
the usual temp there is between 25 to 35 c
2.3 For the Wheels, since we are going to change the size of tires, what is the best
wheels recommended with the suggested tires?
2.4 The tires and wheels recommended to be Street and Track, becz i use it from time
to time in the street, but top priority in the specs is for the track.
2.5 If am going to change to the suggested combo, do I need to change something in
the tuning, or plug and drive.?

On the side of the mods on the car, i've it supercharged with D1SC making 640 RWHP.

Finally, please help me with the best store/online to get the suggested combos you are going to help me with.
 

98 svt

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1.2 Stainless braided likes are definitely better than runner lines
1.3 I would never recommend DOT4 fluid. It always has a more spongy feel at the pedal.
 

12WhiteBoss302

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1.1-I would not recommend the Hawk ceramics for track duty. Maybe get yourself a track dedicated pad such as G-loc pads. Better for heat and more grab.
1.2-Yes it is recommended to change to a stainless steel braided line. Especially if you plan on tracking lots.
1.3-For sure change to a Dot 4 fluid! A high quality Dot 4 can handle the heat much better and you won’t get brake fade compared to a dot 3.

2-Someone else will have better input on this category. But most people go with 18” rims and a squared set up, but that involves some tweaking of the suspension. 305 squared is a great set up!

Some vendors:
Optimum performance
Cortex Racing
Kohr motorsports
Full tilt boogie racing
Blowfish racing
Team beefcake
Apex racing
+tons more!!

Good luck!
 

Moaz

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1.1-I would not recommend the Hawk ceramics for track duty. Maybe get yourself a track dedicated pad such as G-loc pads. Better for heat and more grab.
1.2-Yes it is recommended to change to a stainless steel braided line. Especially if you plan on tracking lots.
1.3-For sure change to a Dot 4 fluid! A high quality Dot 4 can handle the heat much better and you won’t get brake fade compared to a dot 3.

2-Someone else will have better input on this category. But most people go with 18” rims and a squared set up, but that involves some tweaking of the suspension. 305 squared is a great set up!

Some vendors:
Optimum performance
Cortex Racing
Kohr motorsports
Full tilt boogie racing
Blowfish racing
Team beefcake
Apex racing
+tons more!!

Good luck!

Great, thanks for your reply, it really helps.
One more thing please, could you please share with me few details or even resources to read about the squared setup?
 

Moaz

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Ookk, already making my homework and reading about both setup, but, what about suspension tweaking.. what do u mean.. some tuning, or some parts to be changed?
 

12WhiteBoss302

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Ookk, already making my homework and reading about both setup, but, what about suspension tweaking.. what do u mean.. some tuning, or some parts to be changed?
There is tons of different options for multiple suspension setups. Usually when you go squared you have to change the suspension up. Like get a smaller diameter rear sway bar. Depending on the wheel, you’ll need extended wheel studs and spacers for the front. If you lower the car, you should put on a watts link, do a bumpster kit and extended ball joints.

Check out trackmustangsonline. That is your best source for tracking your car. The first few pages on the brakes and wheels section probably has all of your answers. There is literally hundreds of options, it’s all depending on how much you want to spend and how often you go to the track.
 

SonicDTR

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Have you even been on track yet? If not, then do some basic maintenance and get out there before you go changing everything.

I'd be really surprised if you surpass the limits of brakes or tires before you overheat at that power level.
 

Coz

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With a supercharged engine you may experience heat soak. Do you have any cooling mods (aftermarket radiator, GT500 fan, etc.)

With 670hp you will be hitting some real high mph at the end of the staights. Therefore you should definitely install brake ducts. Vorshlag has a great set of inlet ducts that hide behind the lower grill with minor mods. However, your heat exchanger piping may interfere with the routing of the duct hose. If you can't install brake ducts because of the blower I recommend you NOT track it.

Better pads such as CarboTech, G-Loc, or Raybestos ST-43 is a good idea but they can be expensive. A surprisingly good pad that is a great bargain is the PowerStop Track Day Pad PST-1001 for your fronts.

You could probably get away with the ceramic pads on the back but I would recommend you do the GT500 rear brake upgrade to the 13.8" rotors. There is a guy on eBay, I believe his name is ncmustang that sells relocation brackets for the caliper for about $100. This is much cheaper and faster than buying the factory GT500 axle brackets that will require you to pull the axles. Caliper & pads are the same. You'll just need new rotors.

Do not use drilled rotors. Use plain ones or slotted. Stock rotors or Centric Premium rotors are good for plain, and StopTech (also made by Centric) are good for slotted.

RockAuto has the best prices for the rotors and the PowerStop pads.

Definitely go with DOT4. Motul RBF600 or Wilwood 600EXP. The ultimate is Castrol SRF but is twice the price.

Stainless lines are recommended but not mandatory.

But as I said, with 670hp if your track has any long straights, you will be hitting high speeds. With a heavy car like ours, that will generate a lot of heat. Without ducts, that will kill your pad & rotor life and can boil even DOT4 fluid.
 

Moaz

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With a supercharged engine you may experience heat soak. Do you have any cooling mods (aftermarket radiator, GT500 fan, etc.)

With 670hp you will be hitting some real high mph at the end of the staights. Therefore you should definitely install brake ducts. Vorshlag has a great set of inlet ducts that hide behind the lower grill with minor mods. However, your heat exchanger piping may interfere with the routing of the duct hose. If you can't install brake ducts because of the blower I recommend you NOT track it.

Better pads such as CarboTech, G-Loc, or Raybestos ST-43 is a good idea but they can be expensive. A surprisingly good pad that is a great bargain is the PowerStop Track Day Pad PST-1001 for your fronts.

You could probably get away with the ceramic pads on the back but I would recommend you do the GT500 rear brake upgrade to the 13.8" rotors. There is a guy on eBay, I believe his name is ncmustang that sells relocation brackets for the caliper for about $100. This is much cheaper and faster than buying the factory GT500 axle brackets that will require you to pull the axles. Caliper & pads are the same. You'll just need new rotors.

Do not use drilled rotors. Use plain ones or slotted. Stock rotors or Centric Premium rotors are good for plain, and StopTech (also made by Centric) are good for slotted.

RockAuto has the best prices for the rotors and the PowerStop pads.

Definitely go with DOT4. Motul RBF600 or Wilwood 600EXP. The ultimate is Castrol SRF but is twice the price.

Stainless lines are recommended but not mandatory.

But as I said, with 670hp if your track has any long straights, you will be hitting high speeds. With a heavy car like ours, that will generate a lot of heat. Without ducts, that will kill your pad & rotor life and can boil even DOT4 fluid.

Wow.. great..this is very detailed.
let me go through them one by one:
1- My engine with D1SC, along with Racing Intercooler, and Mishimoto Radiator + Radiator Support Kit. In addition for heat soaking, I'm going to activate my Meth kit to inject "Boost Juice" from Snowperf to cool the in-side.

2- For the brake duct, I've purchased this one, as I needed it to be through/Replacing the Fog Lights as I don't have any grille in the down side,
https://www.cjponyparts.com/blowfis...uct-kit-for-14-inch-brembos-2013-2014/p/BDK9/
** kit still in the shipping, but just a question, what could prevent the duct to be installed, you said the blower might be..why?

3- For the rear brakes, I'm using the OEM rotors, but will replace the pads to Stoptech or HWK.
** Another question, why do you recommend to upgrade the rear..?

4- For the front brakes, I've the Brembo 4-pistons (OEM) plain ones, and I already got this pads from Ferodo, Ferodo DS2500 race pads
Ferodo DS2500 race pads - front (D1001) [1 box required] 14.7mm thick, no sensor slot or vibration damping weights, Zeckhausen Racing

5- For the Brake lines, I've got this,
Vorshlag S197 SS Braided Brake Line Kit [91-20SB]

6- For the DOT4 brake liquid, I've the got Wilwood 600EXP

7- For the tires, I'm still working on them, do you have any recommendations?
I've budget for the wheels and tires, but keep in mind that I'm not day/by-day in the track, and not a superman driver, instead, once a month, or twice at max. and I use the car in city-cruising from time to time but not daily driving.
 

Coz

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With respect to engine cooling, I am not familiar with meth kits and to what extent they are effective. Do they have enough capacity for 20-30 minutes at a time?

You may want to install an oil temp guage to monitor the oil temps too.

The fact that you are aware of the potential issue is half the battle.

It is possible that the plumbing to and from your heat exchanger may block your duct hose. You'll have to visualize the routing of your hose from the fog light ducts and by your radiator, windshield wiper bottle, etc and making sure that when your wheels turn from lock to lock that they don't rub the duct hose.

I recommend the GT500 brake upgrade for three reasons

1. The larger diameter gives the brakes a bigger brake torque effect. Similar to a longer wrench.

2. The larger mass of the rotor will allow heat to dissipate better.

3. It looks better...

I am not an expert on tires but the Bridgestone RE-71, Fallen RT615K+, Hankook RS-4, and Michelin Cup 2 are highly regarded for track use. They are all 200TW tires and can easily be driven on the street. Some of these may be louder than regular tires and being softer will not last as long. Some of them will not be real good in the rain but from your location I take it that's not an issue :).

For a dual duty tire, the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is probably the best, followed closely by the Continental ExtremeContact Sport. The Firestone Indy 500 seems to be a good value.

One other thing, if your car did not come with a Torsen differential and still has the clutch-pack based Traction-Lock then I would strongly suggest you upgrade. With your torque you may more easily break loose the rear wheel when powering out of a turn. The Torsen will do a better job of applying that torque to the tire with the most traction.
 

Moaz

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Well,
For the Methanol/Water injection, it's easy to get 2 or 3x gallons in the track day, this is not a problem at all.
In addition, I'm installing a Mishmito Thermostate which activates the high-speed fan from 160F degree, along with using coolant additives from Mishimito as well helps to lower the coolant temp, and since the wiring, relays and harness of the OEM are weak and fails causing the fan to stop, I'm going to make fully-independent electrical wiring, relays and harness from the fan directly to an (on/off) switch inside the car to control that, being able to run the fan without running the engine while being between sessions. (if you have something recommended here, let me know please)

For the Oil Temp, I've a gauge not used yet, so I will make sure getting oil temp on this gauge,
But, I have a question here
- Oil temp requires separate sensor to read purchased first, or this info can be extracted from OBD ?
- Second, what is normal and acceptable oil temp, which if crossed it, it will be harmful?
** I'm asking if needed to get an Oil cooler or not.

In fact, I didn't tested all these (combo) in the track yet, but I'm preparing myself to all, as am still collecting the required parts then to go to my mechanic to handle all of that once followed by Dyno tune.
 

PaxtonShelby

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MPS4 is a great tire for street and track.

Brake fluid - stay away from the silicone stuff - cant remember what DOT# that is. It does not attract moisture (keeps lines from rusting inside) so it is for cars that sit in museums. It gives you the spongy pedal that was mentioned.

Most track guys go to 18” wheels - your stock brake setup should fit but I do not know if the GT500 brake upgrade will fit inside 18” wheels - my guess is no.

Suspension - a good set of coil over shocks like Koni’s is a huge improvement over the lowering springs on the market. Front springs around 450-550 lb/in and rears of 250-350 wulould be a good starting point. You’d need camber caster plates up front as well.

Sounds like you’re planning to have some fun - be careful.

How about some pics of the car?
 

Coz

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Separate sensor is needed. The oil temp "dummy" guage in the center display is a derived temperature.

During normal driving between 190-210°F is great. Of course, on the track going over 5000rpm for sustained periods will result in higher temps.

If you can keep it under 230 that will be great. Change oil more frequently. Up to 240 for short periods is ok but in that case you should change your oil after every track day. I'd get really nervous at 250. I definitely wouldn't want it to go above 260.

Your oil life is cut in half for every 18°F increase in temp over 210-200°F.
 

Moaz

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Separate sensor is needed. The oil temp "dummy" guage in the center display is a derived temperature.

During normal driving between 190-210°F is great. Of course, on the track going over 5000rpm for sustained periods will result in higher temps.

If you can keep it under 230 that will be great. Change oil more frequently. Up to 240 for short periods is ok but in that case you should change your oil after every track day. I'd get really nervous at 250. I definitely wouldn't want it to go above 260.

Your oil life is cut in half for every 18°F increase in temp over 210-200°F.

Thank,
Currently am having Aeroforce kit with 2x gauges, using only one of them so far, and I'm looking for the Oil temp and Oil Pressure sensors to get them installed and read the real values on my second aeroforce gauge.
 

Moaz

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One more thing..
I spent lots of time trying to find the right tire and wheel size for my car, I'm not an engineer and not even experienced.. So, I need your help..
I'm thinking on this combo:

Staggered Setup :

Front: 19x10” with 285/35-19 tires
Rear: 20x10.5” with 305/30-20 tires


Or,
To Go with Squared (4 corners):
20x10” with 285/35-19 tires

 

Coz

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The 20" wheels are heavier and the tires more expensive. Most serious trackers go with 18" but if appearance and limiting gap between tire and fender is important then I would recommend no taller than a 19" wheel. 285 is fine with a 10" wide wheel but for a 305 you should go with 11" or some of the tires usable width may be lost by the pinching of the tire byt the narrower wheel.

For best braking, traction, and wear a square 11" setup with 305s is best.

In your squared set up, did you mean 19x10 for the 285/35-19?
 

Moaz

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The 20" wheels are heavier and the tires more expensive. Most serious trackers go with 18" but if appearance and limiting gap between tire and fender is important then I would recommend no taller than a 19" wheel. 285 is fine with a 10" wide wheel but for a 305 you should go with 11" or some of the tires usable width may be lost by the pinching of the tire byt the narrower wheel.

For best braking, traction, and wear a square 11" setup with 305s is best.

In your squared set up, did you mean 19x10 for the 285/35-19?

Got it,
I was looking for having the good look out of 20'' in a squared setup with 285 tires.
But as I see, you're saying that 19 is better?

FYI, I'm not professional driver, and I track
(80% weekend course tracks, once or twice a month)
(10% drag which is once a month or even once every two months) and
(10% night cruising in the city).

So, what is the best to go with, am already having KONI along with many things modified in my suspension.
 

Coz

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It is difficult to answer your question. Even with your 80/10/10 breakdown only you know how much your track driving experience matters compared to the look when cruising vs. how important it is to get a great 60-foot time at the dragstrip.

There is always a trade-off among those. The massive torque of your engine eliminates any margin of error that may allow lesser cars to get away with a one size fits all solution.
 

Moaz

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It is difficult to answer your question. Even with your 80/10/10 breakdown only you know how much your track driving experience matters compared to the look when cruising vs. how important it is to get a great 60-foot time at the dragstrip.

There is always a trade-off among those. The massive torque of your engine eliminates any margin of error that may allow lesser cars to get away with a one size fits all solution.

+1 Agree
 

Norm Peterson

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For your first few track day outings, give serious consideration to dialing the boost back as far as you reasonably can. The whole point of track days (aka HPDE) is to make you improve as a driver (especially in the corners and under braking). Not to teach you to rely on big engine power so you can pass everybody else in your run group down the straight (and end up with them right back on your rear bumper through the twisty bits).

At minimum, set the Aeroforce annunciator lights on one of your gauges to go off at lower rpm and the other to some mph well below what your car might be capable of in the available straight lengths. The idea here is to remind you to not let the 'red mist' take over.

Past the first couple of introductory (and hopefully in-car instructed) novice days, the easy guideline here is that no pad with the word 'street' in its description belongs on your car on track.

Normally I'd suggest a fully 'square' tire & wheel setup or almost so, but with forced induction you'll probably want to have a little extra rear tire grip and more progressive behavior to give you a little cushion against power-induced oversteer. It'll still be possible to power it loose, but let's make it a little less easy. Keep all four wheel diameters the same, though.

10" is kind of a minimum width for an 80% track-intended car. Ford has chosen 19x10.5 and 19x11 for the new Mustang in Perf Package Level 2 trim (and the GT350 before it), and 19x11/19x11.5 for the GT350R. And even 11's aren't the least bit unsuitable for street use well above 10%.

Absolutely use one of the higher temperature rated DOT4 fluids. DOT3 doesn't have the temperature capability, and DOT5 is the silicone stuff that you shouldn't ever use either. DOT5.1 is not the same kind of stuff as DOT5, but stick with DOT4.


Norm
Intermediate-level
 

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