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Anyone seen black "goo" build up on their injectors from E85?

Discussion in 'The Distillery' started by MalcolmV8, Feb 18, 2016.

  1. MalcolmV8

    MalcolmV8 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    Anyone dealt with E85 and black "goo" on their injectors? Quick background. The last 3 days I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out why my car goes lean when I go WOT. It went from bad to worse. Not only does it go lean but it misses and shudders real bad. I have to drive the car mostly normal. If I get any kind of aggressive with the throttle it goes lean and bucks and misses like crazy. I thought I got a bad a tank of gas, drove it all out and filled up E85 from a different location, I replaced plugs, did a compression test, have double/triple checked for vacuum leaks or other issues. Data logging the car shows perfect fuel pressure, injector duty cycle increase as I step on the gas, fuel pressure increases perfectly, MAF counts go up perfectly as expected yet A/F on the wideband goes lean and the car shudders. My only conclusion was the injectors are simply not giving the fuel they are supposed to. So I pulled a rail and sure enough I see this black substance on them I've read about. They are ID1000s and Injector Dynamics has a cleaning and flow testing service but it's $200 plus shipping. Do fuel injector cleaners work for this? I've never had this E85 black goo before.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. R.D.P.

    R.D.P. Extra Sprinkles Established Member

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    Yikes. I've read about it happening to some of the big boost 4cyl import guys. I've actually seen some pics that looked much worse than yours. As far as getting them cleaned, try Eric Derr. He'll typically do a full set for like $60, not sure if that standard service will clean those, but injectors are his business so I'm sure he's dealt with it before. How many miles since you put the injectors in?
     
  3. MalcolmV8

    MalcolmV8 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    Never seen this before myself. I should add since the new motor I started using a brand new gas station that just opened up right by my house with E85. Wonder if its their fault?

    I mean prior to this I've pulled my motor apart and injectors etc. and never had a problem or seen this junk on there.

    I found a local place that does same day injector cleaning and flow testing for $100. May swing by there tomorrow and see if they can do that. I'm tempted to clean them myself but without a proper flow testing I'm not wanting to gamble on it and have my cylinders running miss matched.

    Then I'm wondering if throwing in a bottle of fuel injector cleaning every other tank or so will stop this from happening again? This is only about 700 miles in on this new E85 station.
     
  4. R.D.P.

    R.D.P. Extra Sprinkles Established Member

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    One theory I've heard is that it occurs when a station starts offering e85 because they use an existing in-ground tank and the e85 cleans years of gunk out of the existing in-ground tank and it contaminates the e85. If the new station was opened on the site of an old station, which seems to happen, that could be your culprit.
     
  5. Bdubbs

    Bdubbs u even lift bro? Established Member

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    Subbing. Malcolm did you test the e85 at that new station? I test mine every single time before I fill up my racing jugs.
     
  6. MG0h3

    MG0h3 Premium Member Premium Member Established Member Established Member

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    If this happens to me I'm blaming the guy that sold me my fuel system.:poke:



    Curious to see what you find out. Heard/read about it but it seemed it was associated with the fuel sitting around.
     
  7. MalcolmV8

    MalcolmV8 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    No this was a brand new gas station as in just dirt existed prior. They did a whole new install. The interesting part is that black goo is not in the lines that I can tell or around the rails or even on the top of the injectors. Only on the bottom. From google searching around they say some stations put an additive in their E85 that gets left behind when the fuel atomizes at the nozzle as it sprays. Apparently that's why you only see it on the end of the injector and no where else. I also see it inside the intake runner when I peak down in there with a flash light.

    It always tests E78. I even cracked the fuel line under the car by my filter and drained some out when first experiencing the problem to test what was currently in the tank and got the usual E78.
    I don't fill up in jugs, I just drive the car and fill up at the station so I don't test every single time.
     
  8. Rambro

    Rambro Well-Known Member Established Member

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    There was a black goo scare a while back with a certain gas station. Turns out they just converted one of the gas tanks to ethanol. Is it true with the ID's you have to take the caps off and clean them out quite often? That wouldn't be bad except when I put the whipple on I won't have a removeable inlet for access.
     
  9. MalcolmV8

    MalcolmV8 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    If pulling injectors is the cure I'm out lol. New hobby. It sucks, I pulled the whipple crusher setup up last night to get these injectors out. I don't plan on doing it again. I either need to go back to my old E85 station which is a ways away :( or find a fuel injector cleaner I can toss in the tank every other tank that keeps them clean.
     
  10. stkjock

    stkjock Corn Powered 900 HP! Established Member

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    Old story with corn.

    how long have you been running the corn?

    what fuel pumps do you have?

    what hoses did you use for your fuel system?
     
  11. Rambro

    Rambro Well-Known Member Established Member

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    I remember reading a post recently where a guy that services injectors said that the ID's catch more contamination. It keeps the injector clean but if you have to babysit these things I'm out too. Keep us updated on this sir.
     
  12. ViperRed91GT

    ViperRed91GT Lightning Guru Established Member

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    Really surprised at how many people have never heard of this, it's been an issue for the last 6 years at least. Most run a few gallons (or an entire tank) of regular gas, and it seems to keep the goo away.
     
  13. MalcolmV8

    MalcolmV8 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    Since 2014, 465s, Fore PTFE.
     
  14. Bdubbs

    Bdubbs u even lift bro? Established Member

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    Good to know, I have 92 octane in the car now for winter storage. Maybe 1 or 2 tanks of that a summer will hopefully keep this problem away.
     
  15. MalcolmV8

    MalcolmV8 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    I only got about 6 tanks of gas from this station and my injectors are so messed up the car can't even go half throttle. My prior station I ran endlessly with no issues.
    So if you have a station with this problem you'd be running regular gas between every 2 tanks of E85. That's not a solution for me. I either switch back the far away station or I find an injector cleaner I can toss in the tank and keep it clean. I have no intention of ever running pump gas again. It's pointless for me, I'd be cruising around out of boost. Then I have to transition back to E85, flush the dilution out and get to 100% E85 in the tank again for the tune to be spot on. No thanks.
     
  16. Bdubbs

    Bdubbs u even lift bro? Established Member

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    I hear you. This just has me a bit worried. I'm fairly new to e85, last summer was my first time ever using it. The two stations I go to have always had good reputation and they been selling it for awhile. I don't really ever want to run anything other than e85 if I don't have to. I only put in the 92 for winter storage.
     
  17. DSG2003Mach1

    DSG2003Mach1 Well-Known Member Premium Member Established Member

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    Ive havent done a tone of research but ive heard the the regulations on what the other 15% is made up of is pretty loose. Sounds like that station might be using junk. I only went through 2-3 tanks of E85 before my oiling issues and the injectors looked brand new when I pulled em
     
  18. procharged 99

    procharged 99 Member Established Member

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    on my car it was not black it was more of a yellowish gel and it was cake over both my fuel filters and injectors and this was with about 3k worth of miles
     
  19. ClubVenom1

    ClubVenom1 On My Way To 8's Established Member

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    This is what I pulled off of another car forum (evolution.net) and this is what one guy found out about the black goo.

    "Well, here is what I did just so everyone is clear. I filled a 40mL vial with E85 and blew it dry with nitrogen gas and mild heating (about 150*F). After there was no fuel left, I placed it under high vacuum to remove any remaining volatiles for about an hour. I was left with a clear sticky residue that smelled bad - like nasty frying oil. I dissolved this sample in the NMR solvent and analyzed it and it IS the same goo that was on the injector. There was smaller amounts of some other stuff in it as well, but the same peaks I saw in the black goo were in this residue. The black goo IS coming from the E85. It isn't naturally black, though. I suspect it just has soot mixed in with it that is giving it the color.

    So the next challenge is figuring out why is this crap in our fuel, and if it is in everyone's fuel (particularly people who aren't having this problem). "


    Heres the link http://www.codsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3965

    LOL maybe thats why its so detonation resistant... because of all the sticky gel floating around in the combustion chamber, cushioning the ignition, as if the flame is enveloped in micro bubble wrap.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
  20. Bdubbs

    Bdubbs u even lift bro? Established Member

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    ^^^. I'd like to know why some have this issue and others not? I know a local Honda guy that kept have black goo on his fuel pump socks. I'm interested even more now to see what I find this spring when I swap fuel pumps.
     

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