Anyone run a flex fuel sensor with dual 465s?

[MalcolmV8]

I was thinking of installing this sensor in my return line to gather ethanol percentages.

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.shtml

My concern is how tiny the inlet and outlet are. They are essentially smaller diameter than -6 AN hose. If I installed that in my return line after the FPR and both 465 pumps are on it could produce to much of a bottle neck to where I'd have pressure spikes at the regulator because it can't bleed off the excess pressure.

Has anyone tested this? One solution I could do is basically build a Y or T in my turn line so the fuel has two paths to flow. That way part of the fuel tees off to the sensor but excess can still flow around it. It'd be a pain and a lot of fittings and don't want to do it unless required.

The reason I'm installing it is because I switch back and forth between 91/meth and E85 a lot because of the distance involved in getting E85. So I go through a lot of transition tanks of mixed fuels which throws the tune way off. I have some transition tunes I've made where I adjust the stoich to work with the current "mess" in the tank. It's a pain though, I have to make pulls on the highway, data log and figure it out. Flash new tune and try again etc. My thought is if I have that sensor I could plot stoich Vs ethanol content on a spreadsheet quiet easily and after fill up run my pumps for a few or even just make a short drive around the block to totally mix up the fuels. Get the reading off the sensor and plug the correct stoich value into the tune and all set. Then my transition tanks of gas would drive really nice without much hassle and data logging etc.

 

[c6zhombre]

I'm not sure if it would create too much of a bottle neck....but that zeitronix has come under question for what it is truly testing. Seems to be testing gas content...not ethanol.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DZhLjwsWVY&client=mv-google

 

[MalcolmV8]

I'm not sure if it would create too much of a bottle neck....but that zeitronix has come under question for what it is truly testing. Seems to be testing gas content...not ethanol.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DZhLjwsWVY&client=mv-google

Interestingly enough the Zeitronix sensor is just a standard GM flex fuel sensor. Zeitronix's marketing of their display unit combined with the sensor is misleading though. They advertise it as an E85 analyzer but really it reads gasoline only and any other content it assumes is ethanol and displays it as ethanol content regardless if it's water, kerosine or anything else. It shouldn't affect my usage but that's very good to know. Thanks for the link.

BTW what makes you think that sensor won't bottle neck dual 465 pumps? Any other setups you've seen or links to anything?

 

[Tractionless1]

FYI It will also read water as ethanol, not good. IMO a waste of money, and misadvertised, been down that path and got my $$ back.

 

[MalcolmV8]

FYI It will also read water as ethanol, not good. IMO a waste of money, and misadvertised, been down that path and got my $$ back.

It reads anything that's not gasoline as ethanol. How is it a waste of money though for my needs? When I'm switching fuels and I have 4 or 5 gallons of E85 remaining in the tank and I fill up with 91. It will then read something like E30 or what ever which will tell me exactly where I need to set stoich in my tune to burn out that tank and then on my next 91 fill up it'll be much closer perhaps E14 and the following fill up should be E10 or there about as advertised at the pump.

 

[c6zhombre]

Interestingly enough the Zeitronix sensor is just a standard GM flex fuel sensor. Zeitronix's marketing of their display unit combined with the sensor is misleading though. They advertise it as an E85 analyzer but really it reads gasoline only and any other content it assumes is ethanol and displays it as ethanol content regardless if it's water, kerosine or anything else. It shouldn't affect my usage but that's very good to know. Thanks for the link.

BTW what makes you think that sensor won't bottle neck dual 465 pumps? Any other setups you've seen or links to anything?

I worded that poorly and didn't mean to imply doubt of it being a restriction....I should have typed "or not". No specific knowledge using that sensor with large pumps and lines like your setup with the 465s.

FYI....there is another sensor out there by a company called Haltech. This is another option to look into. Their website does not give good specifics as far as line size....maybe a phone call could yield more info. I would also be curious if this sensor is a "mis advertisement" like the zeitronix....but I do know Haltech is a hotrodder so I'm thinking his sensor has been on some big HP aftermarket builds



http://www.haltech.com/flex-fuel-sensor-explained/



Edit comment.....I'm looking at the pics of both sensors side by side....they look identical. Probably the same unit, but I bet Haltech could at least field questions.

 

[MalcolmV8]

FYI....there is another sensor out there by a company called Haltech. This is another option to look into. Their website does not give good specifics as far as line size....maybe a phone call could yield more info. I would also be curious if this sensor is a "mis advertisement" like the zeitronix....but I do know Haltech is a hotrodder so I'm thinking his sensor has been on some big HP aftermarket builds



http://www.haltech.com/flex-fuel-sensor-explained/



Edit comment.....I'm looking at the pics of both sensors side by side....they look identical. Probably the same unit, but I bet Haltech could at least field questions.

I gave them a call. The tech said basically all E85 sensors out there are the same thing. They measure the electrical resistance of the fluid flowing through them. So they have the known electrical properties of 100% pure gasoline. As you dilute the gasoline with other liquids like ethanol or water or what ever the electrical resistance is going to change in proportion and it's going to display the change accordingly.

The sensors are not actually analyzing the chemical compounds or knowing that it's ethanol or gasoline or what ever flowing through. Simply an electrical resistance change of the fluid flowing through it.

As far as I can tell that will work just fine for me. It's how flex fuel vehicles from OEM manufactures work too. In fact the Zeitronix display unit comes with a standard GM flex fuel sending unit.

So unless I'm pouring water in my tank or doing something else stupid this should be an OK way of adjusting my stoich on my transition tanks of fuel from E85 to pump or vice verse.

 

[c6zhombre]

I gave them a call. The tech said basically all E85 sensors out there are the same thing. They measure the electrical resistance of the fluid flowing through them. So they have the known electrical properties of 100% pure gasoline. As you dilute the gasoline with other liquids like ethanol or water or what ever the electrical resistance is going to change in proportion and it's going to display the change accordingly.

The sensors are not actually analyzing the chemical compounds or knowing that it's ethanol or gasoline or what ever flowing through. Simply an electrical resistance change of the fluid flowing through it.

As far as I can tell that will work just fine for me. It's how flex fuel vehicles from OEM manufactures work too. In fact the Zeitronix display unit comes with a standard GM flex fuel sending unit.

So unless I'm pouring water in my tank or doing something else stupid this should be an OK way of adjusting my stoich on my transition tanks of fuel from E85 to pump or vice verse.

Ok good glad you called. Did they happen to mention info about the line size and fuel flow? Wondering about that bottle neck.

Is this "electrical resistance" the same concept as "specific gravity"? I've seen that mention before when it comes to fuel pump flow by fuel type....also seen it mention with regards to wet batteries and the fluid inside.

 

[MalcolmV8]

I don't know. I think specific gravity is the density of a fluid as shown in a hydrometer right? but I'd have to look that one up, guessing here

I just noticed on Zeitronic's website it states GM part # 12570260 is the sensor (the 90 degree one) and it also states that max flow capacity is 200 l/h which I assume is liters per hour. I'm going to try and flow dual 465 L/H pumps through it. I think that answers my question right there and I need a tee or bypass of sorts or it will most definitely be a bottle neck it seems.
Unless that's 200 l/h with no/minimal pressure. At 39 PSI maybe it flows more? I dunno lol. Might take some experimenting. Zeitronix is also currently out of stock on the sensor.

They don't list what the part # for the straight through sensor is, that's the one I'd prefer for my setup. I'll keep looking.

 

[KC_SVT]

I have the zeitronix eca-2 kit in my car with dual 465 pumps. We wound up putting the sensor in parallel in the return line (see pic below). Works great, had it on my car for 2000 miles so far. Only issue I've had with it is it seems to read lower than the test tube (e70 via tube reads e65 on guage).

 

[MalcolmV8]

Thanks for sharing and confirming I need to do a parallel setup. It appears you have a very nice clean setup. Has Zeitronix offered any calibration options to bring their display more inline with the hydrometer readings?

 

[KC_SVT]

Thanks for sharing and confirming I need to do a parallel setup. It appears you have a very nice clean setup. Has Zeitronix offered any calibration options to bring their display more inline with the hydrometer readings?

I have not contacted Zeitronix, I have just kept in mind it reads low. I did a search on google and it appears this is a common probelm with their kit.

 

[MalcolmV8]

Thanks for sharing. If that's truly the case I may piece some thing together myself. I found a pretty typical GM sensor on ebay brand new for $70

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Flex-Fu...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2595b5e1a5&vxp=mtr

It says it outputs between 50 Hz and 150 Hz depending on the fuel/ethanol content. I'm thinking build a simple frequency counter circuit and drive a simple 2 digit, maybe 3 digit, LED display. At least then I can fine tune it and calibrate it.

I was all for spending the near $400 for the Zeitronix setup but if it's not even going to be accurate for that much money I may just rig something up myself.

 

[BMR Tech]

Yeah, I've never really cared about my %.

BUT, I don't ever top my tank off with one, or the other, with 3-4+ gallons in the tank. That seems like a pita....

On my Cobra, I simply just put a valve on the bottom of my tank.. When I wanted to fill the tank with E85, I drained the 93. Vice Versa.

 

[KC_SVT]

Thanks for sharing. If that's truly the case I may piece some thing together myself. I found a pretty typical GM sensor on ebay brand new for $70

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Flex-Fu...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2595b5e1a5&vxp=mtr

It says it outputs between 50 Hz and 150 Hz depending on the fuel/ethanol content. I'm thinking build a simple frequency counter circuit and drive a simple 2 digit, maybe 3 digit, LED display. At least then I can fine tune it and calibrate it.

I was all for spending the near $400 for the Zeitronix setup but if it's not even going to be accurate for that much money I may just rig something up myself.

What is accurate though? The test tube method or the digital method... :shrug:

 

[MalcolmV8]

Yeah, I've never really cared about my %.

BUT, I don't ever top my tank off with one, or the other, with 3-4+ gallons in the tank. That seems like a pita....

On my Cobra, I simply just put a valve on the bottom of my tank.. When I wanted to fill the tank with E85, I drained the 93. Vice Versa.

But how's that going to work? You pull up to an E85 pump, open the drain and just dump a few gallons of 91 on the ground? lol. Hopefully nothing blows up before you get out of there!! :-D

You right though constantly switching is a pain. Today we actually drove till the car was missing and bucking and I knew it was sucking up the last few drops in the tank lol. Pulled into the station and filled with E85. Doesn't always work out that well though. Sometimes we get up there and still a few gallons to go. There's really no clean solution except know what the new stoich is, adjust tune and drive off nicely on this mix.

What is accurate though? The test tube method or the digital method... :shrug:

Yeah that is a good question I don't have an immediate answer to. Will take some more research.

 

[Tractionless1]

It reads anything that's not gasoline as ethanol. How is it a waste of money though for my needs? When I'm switching fuels and I have 4 or 5 gallons of E85 remaining in the tank and I fill up with 91. It will then read something like E30 or what ever which will tell me exactly where I need to set stoich in my tune to burn out that tank and then on my next 91 fill up it'll be much closer perhaps E14 and the following fill up should be E10 or there about as advertised at the pump.

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner. Yes it reads anything that isn't gasoline as ethanol, INCLUDING WATER!!!! Testing was done in a bucket of water and the system read E100. With that being the case it's useless.

Check this thread, the tester you want is located in a post in the final 2 pages I think. It's not an on board unit and reads E% without taking water into account. I've been down this road before and trying to save you time and $$. http://www.modularfords.com/threads/209330-E-Readings-Inline-vs-Manual-Testing

More bathroom reading http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?1024943-Think-Twice-Electronic-E85-Testers

 

[MalcolmV8]

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner. Yes it reads anything that isn't gasoline as ethanol, INCLUDING WATER!!!! Testing was done in a bucket of water and the system read E100. With that being the case it's useless.

Check this thread, the tester you want is located in a post in the final 2 pages I think. It's not an on board unit and reads E% without taking water into account. I've been down this road before and trying to save you time and $$. http://www.modularfords.com/threads/209330-E-Readings-Inline-vs-Manual-Testing

More bathroom reading http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?1024943-Think-Twice-Electronic-E85-Testers

Thanks for the links, I'm never above learning. I sat and read all the pages and I see your issue and I do agree these companies advertising it as an E85 analyzer is completely false. It measures gasoline content only and makes a horrible assumption that all else in the tank is ethanol.

However I do not intend to use it to check my E85 fuel. I'll continue using my test tube method as I always have. My intent is on transitional tanks where I'm switching fuels and I have part 91 and part E85 and I want a quick reading on the gauge to give me a good ball park as to the mix in the tank so I can adjust stoich on my tune. It would work perfect for that.

BTW on the subject of testing E85 I tested my local station and it's E75. I really couldn't care less tank to tank though. I just fill up and go. As long as my A/F is in check it's pedal to the floor!
Now I have visited some E85 stations that had a slightly different mix and threw my A/F off a little. I simply adjust stoich in the tune a small amount to compensate and off I go.
It's only these transitional tanks from one fuel type to another (91 & E85) that I care to get an electronic reading off a sensor to adjust stoich in my tune quickly. Currently I'm doing it they typical way of putting the tune into open loop, turning off adaptive learning etc. data log some pulls, calculate what I need to adjust and so forth. The gauge would just make that happen faster.

Decided I'm not spending $400 + with Zeitronix though. I'll pick up an OEM GM sensor for $70 and build my own display to show what it's reading.

 

[Tractionless1]

Thanks for the links, I'm never above learning. I sat and read all the pages and I see your issue and I do agree these companies advertising it as an E85 analyzer is completely false. It measures gasoline content only and makes a horrible assumption that all else in the tank is ethanol.

However I do not intend to use it to check my E85 fuel. I'll continue using my test tube method as I always have. My intent is on transitional tanks where I'm switching fuels and I have part 91 and part E85 and I want a quick reading on the gauge to give me a good ball park as to the mix in the tank so I can adjust stoich on my tune. It would work perfect for that.

BTW on the subject of testing E85 I tested my local station and it's E75. I really couldn't care less tank to tank though. I just fill up and go. As long as my A/F is in check it's pedal to the floor!
Now I have visited some E85 stations that had a slightly different mix and threw my A/F off a little. I simply adjust stoich in the tune a small amount to compensate and off I go.
It's only these transitional tanks from one fuel type to another (91 & E85) that I care to get an electronic reading off a sensor to adjust stoich in my tune quickly. Currently I'm doing it they typical way of putting the tune into open loop, turning off adaptive learning etc. data log some pulls, calculate what I need to adjust and so forth. The gauge would just make that happen faster.

Decided I'm not spending $400 + with Zeitronix though. I'll pick up an OEM GM sensor for $70 and build my own display to show what it's reading.

Cool, looking to see what you come up with. I know you'll keep us updated ;-)

 

[BMR Tech]

But how's that going to work? You pull up to an E85 pump, open the drain and just dump a few gallons of 91 on the ground? lol. Hopefully nothing blows up before you get out of there!! :-D.

It was pretty straightforward. I would pull up to the pump with 1/4 or less tank. Pop my trunk, pull out my drain pan - hook the hose to the valve - drain.

Place the drain pan back in the trunk, fill up with E85 and head home.

The fuel in the pan, I just pour into one of my daily drivers.

Pros: Easy / No tune changes for E85

Cons: 15lbs of fuel in trunk from the trip home, from the E85 pump.