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ALL MOTOR BOLT-ON & TUNED Motor failure

Discussion in '2011-2014 Mustang Talk' started by JayVee, Jul 12, 2014.

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  1. JayVee

    JayVee REAL is Rare Established Member

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    Good question. Fishin for any other possibilities or areas to look into. Would a blown gasket really cause that time of piston damage and breakage within the rod and the point where the rod snapped. Idk, that is a question I am putting out there and sincerely asking myself. Just seems to be on the catastrophic end for a blown head gasket.
     
  2. SVTPete83

    SVTPete83 Well-Known Member Established Member

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    A weakend rod seems to be the case. I wonder how many coyote failures have been just the rods?
     
  3. Rdrcr

    Rdrcr New Member Established Member

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    ^^^^
    That's what I'm thinking...

    There was no coolant in #1, correct?

    Mike
     
  4. Blazer707@TBR

    [email protected] Master Ford Tech Authorized Vendor

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    Any pictures of the headgaskets. Top and bottom pictures would be nice. Its fairly easy to read a headgasket.
     
  5. NickSezz

    NickSezz Member Established Member

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    Coyote failures have a lot to do with the stock rods and pistons. A motor that detonates with stock rods will fail more easily than a motor with true forged rods. A motor with stock rods can also break without any detonation. What one Coyote can handle does not mean another can do the same and here's why...

    I am using photos of Boss 302 connecting rods as an example. These rods are thicker than stock Coyote rods but are made using the same manufacturing process.

    Below you will see that:

    1) All of the rods have the same basic imperfections on the surface from the die that they were "forged" from but SOME of them seem to be worse as seen in the close up of the small ends.

    2) Even where the big ends are intentionally split, there are pretty big variances of the cracks due to the inconsistent granular structure of the rod.

    3) Your stock rods are nothing more then compressed and heated "sand" as seen in the close up of the big end split area.

    View attachment 22264

    View attachment 22265

    View attachment 22266

    View attachment 22267

    So, why did the OP's motor fail?

    Could his motor possibly had a few rods that were "weaker" than others? Maybe?
    Was the motor/rods used in a way they were not intended. Yes.

    When running E85 you are less likely to have a knock event compares to regular 93...in most cases. But, since E85 can be tuned more aggressively (running more boost and or higher timing to produce more power) there is more of a chance that you break a rod from normal use due to surpassing the parts physical capabilities. If detonation occurs (from possibly a bad mix of E"85") this event is much more catastrophic (since you added all of that boost and or timing).

    At the end of the day this is all part of Hot Rodding.

    Good luck with the rebuild OP. If there is anything we can do to help let us know.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  6. JayVee

    JayVee REAL is Rare Established Member

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    well then, adding to that... This is basically in theory what Collin believes. Without the detail. From the begining he said he does not feel its the tune or a fuel injector stuck, although everything and anything could be possible in the early stages of tear down. As it was torn down and he saw with his own eyes what the internal damage was, he then started to narrow his comments (which isn't much. He is a quiet character...lol!) down to "MECHANICAL FAILURE" meaning something was weak from within.
     
  7. JUIC3D

    JUIC3D Boost Junkie Established Member

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    Great post Nick.
     
  8. SStampede

    SStampede New Member Established Member

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    I'm not sure, or don't remember, but what was the highest RPM did you go?

    Thanks.
     
  9. BMR Tech

    BMR Tech Authorized Vendor Authorized Vendor

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    My thoughts are;

    Boss rods were engineered, and used for a higher than GT OEM Redline and power level. I believe the Ford Engineers saw a "weakness" in the Coyote GT rod, and felt is was required for the slight bump in power and RPM.

    If Ford did not see an issue with the GT rod, why did they develop the Boss rod?

    How much power does a bolt-on and tuned Coyote GT make, with E85? What RPM does it turn? I bet more power, and equal/more RPM than a Boss engine tested by Ford.

    "Boss" rods are now being used solely, in the new Coyote engine with a 7,000 RPM Redline. The rods in the 2011-2014 Coyote GT/Truck engine are no longer being used. If Ford did not see any issues or weaknesses in the "GT" rod - why use the new Boss style?

    Something to consider. I know Collin really well. Collin knows engines really well. I would think he is correct in his assumption.
     
  10. Fabbed5.0

    Fabbed5.0 New Member Established Member

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    This is why I don't like pushing the power limits of the stock motor, because you never know what your engine is built with. Like the pictures above with the difference in the rods structure scares me even more lol. Also as another member posted he had the same identical rod break as you, Collin knows his shit and I would say you just got a bad (weaker) rod and that cause the failure. I was there when your fuel injectors got flow tested and they were fine as described. hope to see you get back on the road soon.
     
  11. JayVee

    JayVee REAL is Rare Established Member

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    Thanks... I am about to post the flow chart given to me by BOOSTLAB.
     
  12. JayVee

    JayVee REAL is Rare Established Member

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    full page:
    be6a4fa3-34a8-4f62-a8cf-aac8157f45f4_zps886340f2.jpg

    sectioned to view:
    flowchart_zpsc60d7ac1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  13. Red Turtle

    Red Turtle ALWAYS WATCHING Staff Member Super Moderator

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    How many miles were on the car when you purchased it earlier this year? Without knowing the previous owner/history, maybe the internal weakness was caused by its previous owner?
     
  14. JayVee

    JayVee REAL is Rare Established Member

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    Car was purchased last week of Jan 2014 with approx 11k ~ That is exactly what my conversations with Collin and Smm chalking it up and blaming on the previous owner...lol! Which is easy to do at this point but not what I want to do. Its still very unsettling I have NO definitive answer or cause and too many probabilities. I was actually hoping the inj. failed or showed unstable flow on the bench.

    Kirk made it clear not to rule out the inj failed at some point. He had the same scenario happen to him. #1 over flowing/stuck but was able to catch it on time both times. Pulled them out and did the same full flow testing and back pressure cleaning repeated...Problem never happen again after his service. He caught it under daily soft driving conditions vs my case, I was under WOT Track Mode! No way I was able to catch it when it failed. The cause can be a small particle bouncing within the inj that caused the temporary failure is what he still says is possible due to the engine failure and how everything broke. So, you can see why its still a lil unsettling hoping everything is fine from here on out.

    ...Moving along is all I can do. Waiting for FORD to get a date of restocking the oil pump (back order) is the hold up at this point. Everything else, (gaskets etc) is in hand and ready to drop off at RI.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
  15. JUIC3D

    JUIC3D Boost Junkie Established Member

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    It's a luck of the draw thing I think. You're obviously already pushing the limits with your current configuration and power level so it's not like you're engine is "safe."

    Some motors hold together at 700+whp and stay together for a long time (Kenbjones) and some break with 430whp (OP). Chris has 60K on his and Sai has 40k. I have 23k on mine with hundreds of bottles and 600+whp and so far we're doing fine.

    IMO, it's just a risk you take when you decide to mod a motor. Hell, even stock motors break with factory calibrations so it's really a crap shoot.
     
  16. 04compgt

    04compgt Member Established Member

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    I agree 100% that it is a crapshoot. We are pushing these motors hard and to their limits. I have a motor on the stand waiting just for that scenario. At 42,000 miles my motor has not skipped a beat (knock on wood) all we can do is datalog and keep the tunes conservative at higher power levels and hope for the best.
     
  17. JayVee

    JayVee REAL is Rare Established Member

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    DANG IT meng! BNIB Oil pump is on back order till the end of Aug. approx. date... any one has a BNIB oil pump laying around? Possibly from a build that not yet has taken off? If anyone can help, that would be awesome! May have to do a WTB thread.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
  18. _Snake_

    _Snake_ Well-Known Member Established Member

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    I can try to run one down if you give me a part number.
     
  19. JayVee

    JayVee REAL is Rare Established Member

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    br3z-6600a
     
  20. Fabbed5.0

    Fabbed5.0 New Member Established Member

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    No deff right buddy its all a crap shoot, the same reason why I wanted to make the most power per psi because it will have less cylinder pressure, in hopes that it will last longer. at least thats what I keep telling myself lol
     
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