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2020+ Shelby GT500 Mustang
2020 Shelby GT500 Mustang - 10.61@133 MPH - Press Drive Articles/Vids
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<blockquote data-quote="tt335ci03cobra" data-source="post: 16318886" data-attributes="member: 68944"><p>I’m aware springs rates are matched to load. The gt350r might be stiffer than a gt350, but we both know the acr rides waaaaay more harshly because it runs very aggressive rates. That was entirely my point. It will be choppy on anything but a smooth surface like leguna. What are you trying to paint here? Where did I fail you with my words to give you this idea that spring rate somehow should get softer with higher downforce? At a loss for words, no offense.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The downforce aides deceleration absolutely. That’s partly why it’s there. The other part is to press the car into the ground while cornering so it’s less likely to brake tire adhesion with the road surface. It creates... wait for it... drag. It’s c/d is .54, and limits top speed to 175 as there is... wait for it... a resistance to accelerate. Most trucks have .45-.7 c/d’s too. They are a huge air brake as well without wings or aero pieces. A school bus is also a giant air brake, as is a motor home. Just being wing shaped doesn’t mean something will cause drag. Adjustability of aero pieces can actually cause... lift. Planes do this by the way. They have wings and actually fly. </p><p></p><p>Back to cars, take your F1 analogy.</p><p></p><p>F1 cars don’t run 235lbs of unsprung weight though. They run 15” wheels with fushy load absorbing tires because... there’s tons of aero force and a very small chassis to mitigate the forces against. The tire acts as an absorber as much as it acts as a road holder. It’s very goowey compound. </p><p></p><p>Imagine an f1 car with 235lbs of heavy unsprung rolling stock, it would be horribly slow. The tires would be gone in 3 laps. </p><p></p><p>I’m saying the downforce is detrimental to some braking dynamics on the acr because it is pushing those heavier wheels/tires down with additional load. The actual braking distance is not impaired, if anything its shortened. Now that the vehicle has been slowed, that extra 30% of unspurng weight the viper acr has motivated to woah now needs to experience a polarity shift of its centrifugal balance to either move left, right, or accelerate. That heavier rolling stock is now tasked with that tug which is transferred to the tires, and generally slows transitional balance, and wears tires. Overall it’s not beneficial to run such heavy wheels/tires. The viper acr would be much quicker and easier to control with carbon wheels. What is there not to get about that? An f1 car with all its aero would do far worse at braking and dynamic directional changes with heavier wheels as well. As a system, heavy downforce, stiff suspension and heavy wheels will lead to understeer on corner entry and a resistance to change direction. Although worded admittedly vaguely and open to critic, that’s my point. The downforce isn’t just magically bettering the acr’s braking. In a straight line sure but put total braking performance like transitioning to entering corners on decel or mid corner decel or off camber and the heavy wheels are further pushed to avoid turning in/understeer. There’s no 1 sentence way to easily state that effect but it’s whats implied by the idea that downforce isn’t the end all be all for braking. Braking isn’t just 60-0. Almost no car ever needs to perform a 60-0 straight line stop on a circuit unless it’s to avoid a wreck.</p><p></p><p>As for unsprung weight, compare the viper brakes and gt500 brakes, but keep in mind what is more so outboard and more so inboard. Yes the 16.5” rotor is heavier, but Not to the extent of 30lbs each vs the vipers. And let’s just stoke an ego fight and say they are. </p><p></p><p>Look at an ace wheel, tire and brake disc from a top down helicopter view and imagine where the weight exists.</p><p></p><p></p><p>(heavy wheel & tire|light disc)hubaxle</p><p></p><p>Now look at the gt500’s</p><p></p><p>(light wheel/tire|heavy disc)hubaxle</p><p></p><p>1. Notice the placement of weight.</p><p>2. Notice the span of the weight. </p><p>3. Keep in mind the vipers heaviest piece in all of this is a 10lbs heavier rear tire which is the outer most and tallest piece. </p><p>4. Even assuming the mustang is somehow running 30lbs heavier rotor in the form of 8-9lbs front and 7-8lbs rear, that is deep in the wheel, and centered on a hub. It’s also max 16.5” span again centered, and equally spread. The vipers rear tire is 3-4” tall, and a halo of additional weight, with a 15” span and 28” height.</p><p></p><p>Now play with those objects in your mind and see which one as a system is less or more prone to motivational distress or failure to perform as desired.</p><p></p><p>You can two athletes that weigh the exact same but one can easily run a 100m dash like an Olympian and the other can lift 500lbs on a bench press, one will be terrible at running and the other will barely lift 200lbs on a bench. That’s my point. Here. Even if the brakes negate the wheel advantage in terms of weight, where the weight is spread is far smarter on the gt500 for road feel, handling and general driver communication.</p><p></p><p>I guarantee a gt500 cftp car will be far slower with acr wheel/tire/brake (and accordingly optimized suspension recalibration) and likewise a viper acr will be dramatically faster with gt500 wheel/tire/brakes and accordingly recalibrated suspension tuning.</p><p></p><p>The viper does likely need a 355 rear to handle the load of a 1700lbs of downforce, so as a system that would become a hurdle to account for, so let’s say you take that into account and formulate a carbon wheel, and heavy rotor for the viper acr’s Dimensional needs and formulate a lighter 355 tire.</p><p></p><p>Michilines mustang gt500 specific tire is very light for its size at 29/30lbs.</p><p></p><p>This is too much shit to write. Why do you guys not pick stupid shit that will take hours to write and explain. It took me 2-3 times of trying to get back to this to break this down. Enjoy typos because I don’t have time to proof read right now.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tt335ci03cobra, post: 16318886, member: 68944"] I’m aware springs rates are matched to load. The gt350r might be stiffer than a gt350, but we both know the acr rides waaaaay more harshly because it runs very aggressive rates. That was entirely my point. It will be choppy on anything but a smooth surface like leguna. What are you trying to paint here? Where did I fail you with my words to give you this idea that spring rate somehow should get softer with higher downforce? At a loss for words, no offense. The downforce aides deceleration absolutely. That’s partly why it’s there. The other part is to press the car into the ground while cornering so it’s less likely to brake tire adhesion with the road surface. It creates... wait for it... drag. It’s c/d is .54, and limits top speed to 175 as there is... wait for it... a resistance to accelerate. Most trucks have .45-.7 c/d’s too. They are a huge air brake as well without wings or aero pieces. A school bus is also a giant air brake, as is a motor home. Just being wing shaped doesn’t mean something will cause drag. Adjustability of aero pieces can actually cause... lift. Planes do this by the way. They have wings and actually fly. Back to cars, take your F1 analogy. F1 cars don’t run 235lbs of unsprung weight though. They run 15” wheels with fushy load absorbing tires because... there’s tons of aero force and a very small chassis to mitigate the forces against. The tire acts as an absorber as much as it acts as a road holder. It’s very goowey compound. Imagine an f1 car with 235lbs of heavy unsprung rolling stock, it would be horribly slow. The tires would be gone in 3 laps. I’m saying the downforce is detrimental to some braking dynamics on the acr because it is pushing those heavier wheels/tires down with additional load. The actual braking distance is not impaired, if anything its shortened. Now that the vehicle has been slowed, that extra 30% of unspurng weight the viper acr has motivated to woah now needs to experience a polarity shift of its centrifugal balance to either move left, right, or accelerate. That heavier rolling stock is now tasked with that tug which is transferred to the tires, and generally slows transitional balance, and wears tires. Overall it’s not beneficial to run such heavy wheels/tires. The viper acr would be much quicker and easier to control with carbon wheels. What is there not to get about that? An f1 car with all its aero would do far worse at braking and dynamic directional changes with heavier wheels as well. As a system, heavy downforce, stiff suspension and heavy wheels will lead to understeer on corner entry and a resistance to change direction. Although worded admittedly vaguely and open to critic, that’s my point. The downforce isn’t just magically bettering the acr’s braking. In a straight line sure but put total braking performance like transitioning to entering corners on decel or mid corner decel or off camber and the heavy wheels are further pushed to avoid turning in/understeer. There’s no 1 sentence way to easily state that effect but it’s whats implied by the idea that downforce isn’t the end all be all for braking. Braking isn’t just 60-0. Almost no car ever needs to perform a 60-0 straight line stop on a circuit unless it’s to avoid a wreck. As for unsprung weight, compare the viper brakes and gt500 brakes, but keep in mind what is more so outboard and more so inboard. Yes the 16.5” rotor is heavier, but Not to the extent of 30lbs each vs the vipers. And let’s just stoke an ego fight and say they are. Look at an ace wheel, tire and brake disc from a top down helicopter view and imagine where the weight exists. (heavy wheel & tire|light disc)hubaxle Now look at the gt500’s (light wheel/tire|heavy disc)hubaxle 1. Notice the placement of weight. 2. Notice the span of the weight. 3. Keep in mind the vipers heaviest piece in all of this is a 10lbs heavier rear tire which is the outer most and tallest piece. 4. Even assuming the mustang is somehow running 30lbs heavier rotor in the form of 8-9lbs front and 7-8lbs rear, that is deep in the wheel, and centered on a hub. It’s also max 16.5” span again centered, and equally spread. The vipers rear tire is 3-4” tall, and a halo of additional weight, with a 15” span and 28” height. Now play with those objects in your mind and see which one as a system is less or more prone to motivational distress or failure to perform as desired. You can two athletes that weigh the exact same but one can easily run a 100m dash like an Olympian and the other can lift 500lbs on a bench press, one will be terrible at running and the other will barely lift 200lbs on a bench. That’s my point. Here. Even if the brakes negate the wheel advantage in terms of weight, where the weight is spread is far smarter on the gt500 for road feel, handling and general driver communication. I guarantee a gt500 cftp car will be far slower with acr wheel/tire/brake (and accordingly optimized suspension recalibration) and likewise a viper acr will be dramatically faster with gt500 wheel/tire/brakes and accordingly recalibrated suspension tuning. The viper does likely need a 355 rear to handle the load of a 1700lbs of downforce, so as a system that would become a hurdle to account for, so let’s say you take that into account and formulate a carbon wheel, and heavy rotor for the viper acr’s Dimensional needs and formulate a lighter 355 tire. Michilines mustang gt500 specific tire is very light for its size at 29/30lbs. This is too much shit to write. Why do you guys not pick stupid shit that will take hours to write and explain. It took me 2-3 times of trying to get back to this to break this down. Enjoy typos because I don’t have time to proof read right now. [/QUOTE]
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2020 Shelby GT500 Mustang - 10.61@133 MPH - Press Drive Articles/Vids
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