03 Cobra observation-bad cats-please read.

Randee of the Redwoods

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Been reading up on some of the delivery problems some of you have had. I also read up on the dyno tune posts. I don't know if any of you have noticed, but I've put two and two together and formed an observation.
The biggest complaint/problem so far seems to be "bad gas", loading cats and fouled plugs. One guy said he had an egr hose pop off on the test drive. Problem turned out to be loading cats creating intense back pressure. Another fellow said he looked under his car and his cats were "red hot". This goes with the majority posts saying the cars are delayed at the dealer for plug and cat replacement. Keep up with me.
I then read the dyno results. I also read the tuning results with something called the MAFterburner. Go back and read that post, especially the one where the guy listed the a/f characteristics. He said the a/f ratio fell off the chart. It actually went below 9:1. That's terrible in any book. Not to mention terribly rich. Most likely tuned that way for durability, but imagine the economy you would possibly pull out of that with some simple adjustments.
Figure all this out yet?
Ever seen what happens to a car running overly rich(raw gas smell from the tail pipe)? Car runs terrible. Engine will "bog". Plugs will foul. And, yes, cats will load up with gas and glow red as they heat up to operating temp which is something like 1000*F(could be wrong there). I've heard of this quite often in the Super Coupe circles I used to be in as those motors ran rich from the factory(my 92 ran 10:1, then 9:1@5000 rpm). Tuning the motors was tedious as they required a/f adjustments before anything else. Word going around was the over rich conditions were programmed in for durability, i.e. save headgaskets. (Mine blew at 74k miles).
Well, I don't know Ford products near well enough as some of you hear, but it looks as if FoMoCo is back to their old tricks. Based on the description of the problems and the dyno tune results, I'd say the Ford has brought this problem on themselves.
 

Randee of the Redwoods

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Originally posted by 92LX5.0
so what are you saying brother. They tuned these f ers wrong??

I'm just making an observation, hence the title of the post. People had problems with loading cats and bad plugs. Then a guy posts about how the engine ran so rich the a/f ratio fell off the graph.
I wouldn't say they were programmed WRONG, merely programmed SAFELY, with some a little TOO safe. Read between the lines here. That mafterburner guy pulled 20hp gains at revs above 5000 rpm, and that was only with a miniscule maf a/f tuner.
The more poeple mess with these motors, the more potential is found locked up in them.
 

92LX5.0

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Well, I would have to say they are tuning them wrong. Being that cats n plugs are being killed.............:p
 

IRON MACHINE

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Well, to test this theory out, has anyone who has gotten the cats and plugs replaced had any further problems? I assume the dealers are not reprogramming the a/f ratio in the computers when they do this, so the if the problem is the rich condition, it should just keep resurfacing in the same vehicles after the fix. Anyone?
 

mjchip

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Hey,

You might be on to something. Check out my dyno graphs from my first tuning session. Runs .012 and .013 were stock tune. It is LEAN as hell until 3000 and then it goes pig rich!

Here is the link: http://mafterburner.com

Mark


Originally posted by Randee of the Redwoods
Been reading up on some of the delivery problems some of you have had. I also read up on the dyno tune posts. I don't know if any of you have noticed, but I've put two and two together and formed an observation.
The biggest complaint/problem so far seems to be "bad gas", loading cats and fouled plugs. One guy said he had an egr hose pop off on the test drive. Problem turned out to be loading cats creating intense back pressure. Another fellow said he looked under his car and his cats were "red hot". This goes with the majority posts saying the cars are delayed at the dealer for plug and cat replacement. Keep up with me.
I then read the dyno results. I also read the tuning results with something called the MAFterburner. Go back and read that post, especially the one where the guy listed the a/f characteristics. He said the a/f ratio fell off the chart. It actually went below 9:1. That's terrible in any book. Not to mention terribly rich. Most likely tuned that way for durability, but imagine the economy you would possibly pull out of that with some simple adjustments.
Figure all this out yet?
Ever seen what happens to a car running overly rich(raw gas smell from the tail pipe)? Car runs terrible. Engine will "bog". Plugs will foul. And, yes, cats will load up with gas and glow red as they heat up to operating temp which is something like 1000*F(could be wrong there). I've heard of this quite often in the Super Coupe circles I used to be in as those motors ran rich from the factory(my 92 ran 10:1, then 9:1@5000 rpm). Tuning the motors was tedious as they required a/f adjustments before anything else. Word going around was the over rich conditions were programmed in for durability, i.e. save headgaskets. (Mine blew at 74k miles).
Well, I don't know Ford products near well enough as some of you hear, but it looks as if FoMoCo is back to their old tricks. Based on the description of the problems and the dyno tune results, I'd say the Ford has brought this problem on themselves.
 
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FINICKY

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ok so heres a good question do we go out and get chips wich would probably wake the snake up allot or do we waite in case ford isues reprograms for the computer.
 

CRZ8R

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Enquiring minds want to know.

Doesn't sound good. Can we just get them tuned properly with a new chip?
 

Randee of the Redwoods

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Originally posted by IRON MACHINE
Well, to test this theory out, has anyone who has gotten the cats and plugs replaced had any further problems? I assume the dealers are not reprogramming the a/f ratio in the computers when they do this, so the if the problem is the rich condition, it should just keep resurfacing in the same vehicles after the fix. Anyone?

My theory on that is they became loaded and fouled during final inspections. Mine was not, but then, I don't know if mine was randomly pulled from the line and tested for QC. Just a theory.
 

Randee of the Redwoods

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Re: Enquiring minds want to know.

Originally posted by CRZ8R
Doesn't sound good. Can we just get them tuned properly with a new chip?

Finicky, too, read: I know of people already working on chips for the 03 Cobra. Numbers are VERY promising, but I can't really say until I'm allowed to. Dont wanna let the cat of the bag if you know what I mean...
I can say the improvements were on par with what the mjchip dude squeezed out but I won't know anything more for at least a couple of weeks. I'd say, based solely on observations, that there is a considerable amount of power to be had from just computer tuning. And maybe get a couple of mpg's to boot.
 

mjchip

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Re: Re: Enquiring minds want to know.

Originally posted by Randee of the Redwoods

<snip>
I'd say, based solely on observations, that there is a considerable amount of power to be had from just computer tuning. And maybe get a couple of mpg's to boot.

Yup! :)

Mark
 
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Black Cobra

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Re: Re: Enquiring minds want to know.

Originally posted by Randee of the Redwoods
...And maybe get a couple of mpg's to boot.

Wonder if we can get our $1000 Gas Guzzler tax money back if Ford later decides to come up with a leaner tune.
 

black03SVT

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Re: Re: Enquiring minds want to know.

Originally posted by Randee of the Redwoods
I'd say, based solely on observations, that there is a considerable amount of power to be had from just computer tuning. And maybe get a couple of mpg's to boot.

Hey more horsepower and better gas mileage??
Sounds good to me;-)

Why would Ford run it super rich above 3,000RPM? Why not slightly rich?
 

CRZ8R

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Chip action

If JDM or whoever comes out with a different chip tuned for our Terminators then cool. Please broadcast it all over this Bulleting Board. I don't really understand the whole tuning anyway... I thought you needed to put your car on the Dyno to get a chip burned... but someone from another thread said that JDM only needs the number of the sticker on the Drivers side door?? SO for all the laymen like me, pleez share the wealth!
 

black03SVT

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Re: Re: Re: Enquiring minds want to know.

Originally posted by Black Cobra


Wonder if we can get our $1000 Gas Guzzler tax money back if Ford later decides to come up with a leaner tune.


:beer:
 

Randee of the Redwoods

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Re: Re: Re: Enquiring minds want to know.

Originally posted by black03SVT


Hey more horsepower and better gas mileage??
Sounds good to me;-)

Why would Ford run it super rich above 3,000RPM? Why not slightly rich?

Something I learned with my Super Coupe. The richer the mixture/the longer your engine lasts. Gas serves 2 purposes: a catalyst for the ignition of the oxygen during combustion and to cool the incoming air charge for a denser charge in the combustion chamber. The leaner your a/f ratio, the hotter(temp wise) the motor runs. Heat is harmful. As the motor runs hotter, durability goes down. Rich tunes help the head gaskets by keeping the combustion chamber temps down. We all know some of Ford's hg's were crap to begin with, so rich tunes did not help. I can vouch for that.
Me thinks the rich tune was still for safety. Why rich above 3000 rpm? I drive around town and rarely go over 3000. So it seems the curves are tuned for normal driving. The super rich upper rpm conditions are safety margins. Since this motor is obviously a fire breather, I think Ford just went super conservative on the fuel curve so they can firmly say that an 03 Cobra, LEFT BONE STOCK, will make 350+hp/350+tq at the wheels and last forever.
Now, I'm not a tuner, this is purely observation. I'm not here to say this is the way it is. This is just what I've put together from what I've seen. I'll be the first to tell you I may be wrong on some or all of this, but from what I've seen, the theory fits.
 

mjchip

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Enquiring minds want to know.

Originally posted by Randee of the Redwoods


Something I learned with my Super Coupe. The richer the mixture/the longer your engine lasts. Gas serves 2 purposes: a catalyst for the ignition of the oxygen during combustion and to cool the incoming air charge for a denser charge in the combustion chamber. The leaner your a/f ratio, the hotter(temp wise) the motor runs. Heat is harmful. As the motor runs hotter, durability goes down. Rich tunes help the head gaskets by keeping the combustion chamber temps down. We all know some of Ford's hg's were crap to begin with, so rich tunes did not help. I can vouch for that.
Me thinks the rich tune was still for safety. Why rich above 3000 rpm? I drive around town and rarely go over 3000. So it seems the curves are tuned for normal driving. The super rich upper rpm conditions are safety margins. Since this motor is obviously a fire breather, I think Ford just went super conservative on the fuel curve so they can firmly say that an 03 Cobra, LEFT BONE STOCK, will make 350+hp/350+tq at the wheels and last forever.
Now, I'm not a tuner, this is purely observation. I'm not here to say this is the way it is. This is just what I've put together from what I've seen. I'll be the first to tell you I may be wrong on some or all of this, but from what I've seen, the theory fits.

I think that Randee is pretty much on the mark. My car was super lean up to around 3300rpm and then it went super rich up until redline. IMO, the lean tune below 3300 is for fuel economy and the super rich tune above 4500rpm is for longevity. I'll also speculate that they wanted to keep a little "fat" in the tune for the tuners. I tell you what though, there is NO WAY IN HELL SVT would go through the whole 99 Cobra debacle again with this car. Ford had a minor screw-up with the Bullitt's numbers too which probably made some up-and-ups squirm in their seats. :)

This engine should be relatively bulletproof with it's forged internals, cast iron block/steel crank, low-compression (8.5:1) and "fat" tune.

Mark
 

a94cobra

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When chip makers make a generic chip for a specific vehicle, they simply need the computer codes. They have already taken a similar car, stock no mods, to the dyno and worked out a program. You call them and say, "I have a stock vehicle send me a chip." They send you the generic chip.

On a modified car that has had many changes, these generic chips will be hit and miss. so the best way to have one done here is by using the dyno.
 

docs03

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autologic chips

I spoke to Mike Wesley who is the designer of the Autologic chip software that a lot of the tuners use. He related he has software ready for the 03 and there's ALOT of hidden power in these motors. I will be having him tune my car next month on a dyno for a chip when I do the exhaust install. I'll let you guys know what happens.
 

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