‘03 Cobra Engine Build For 800-1000 hp

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03_Zinc_Termi

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The motors out and apart. Got a good deal on a set of DB 9 thread heads to have machined etc. in place of my old 4 threads. Is there anything else I should get before it all goes back together? Currently running a ported Eaton with about 500 rwhp, end goal is 800-1000 hp with supporting fuel, suspension mods etc. Here’s a quick list of what Ive got for the motor so far.

-Diamond Pistons (.20 over) 15cc
-Diamond/Total Seal Rings
-H-13 Tool Steel Wrist Pins
-Factory Forged Manley Rods
-ARP 2000 Head Studs (Hex)
-ARP Main Stud Kit
-ARP Main Side Bolts
-Clevite H Series Main Bearings
-Clevite H Series Rod Bearings
-Ford Racing Timing Assembly Kit
-Comp Cam Billet Adjustable Primary Gears
-MHS Billet Adjustable Secondary gears
-MMR HD Secondary Chains
-MMR Head Cooling Mod
-9 Thread DB Heads
-TSS Billet Oil Pump Gears
-Ford High Volume Oil Pump
-New Ford OEM Lifters
 

MalcolmV8

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What fuel are you using and what power adder are you swapping to? Two very important factors. If you're shooting for 1000 whp I would not have gone with -15 CC dish. Flat tops or dome even. Compression goes a long way to HP and engine efficiency.
 

03_Zinc_Termi

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What fuel are you using and what power adder are you swapping to? Two very important factors. If you're shooting for 1000 whp I would not have gone with -15 CC dish. Flat tops or dome even. Compression goes a long way to HP and engine efficiency.

Not necessarily shooting for 1000, just want to know it can handle it if I decided to go that that high. Id be more than happy with 800 or so, hell even 750 to the tires would be fine. I didn’t wanna up the compression which is why I went with the 15cc so that more boost could be ran later on if i wanted to go turbo (at least that was my understanding). Id like to go with a Gen 3 2.9 Whipple at around 800 or so all said and done. Is 800 achievable with the 2.9 on 91? Not really looking to run E85 but there are one or two gas stations that have it around here so not impossible. Will eventually get a return style fuel system from lethal with 60’s or 80’s.


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whitedevil95

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Not necessarily shooting for 1000, just want to know it can handle it if I decided to go that that high. Id be more than happy with 800 or so, hell even 750 to the tires would be fine. I didn’t wanna up the compression which is why I went with the 15cc so that more boost could be ran later on if i wanted to go turbo (at least that was my understanding). Id like to go with a Gen 3 2.9 Whipple at around 800 or so all said and done. Is 800 achievable with the 2.9 on 91? Not really looking to run E85 but there are one or two gas stations that have it around here so not impossible. Will eventually get a return style fuel system from lethal with 60’s or 80’s.


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91 Octane and your stockish Fuel system will limit you to around 600-640rwhp, and put you at a much greater risk of melting that sparkling new motor. Sorry but the truth.
 

Soap

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Not necessarily shooting for 1000, just want to know it can handle it if I decided to go that that high. Id be more than happy with 800 or so, hell even 750 to the tires would be fine. I didn’t wanna up the compression which is why I went with the 15cc so that more boost could be ran later on if i wanted to go turbo (at least that was my understanding). Id like to go with a Gen 3 2.9 Whipple at around 800 or so all said and done. Is 800 achievable with the 2.9 on 91? Not really looking to run E85 but there are one or two gas stations that have it around here so not impossible. Will eventually get a return style fuel system from lethal with 60’s or 80’s.

You need to sit down and rethink some things. You are not going to make 800 to the tire on 60# or 80# injectors with pump gas. You might make 800 on 80's but only if you run good fuel like Q16/C16.

--Joe
 

03_Zinc_Termi

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91 Octane and your stockish Fuel system will limit you to around 600-640rwhp, and put you at a much greater risk of melting that sparkling new motor. Sorry but the truth.

I do plan on doing a return style system once the cars up and running again but would that allow me to run that much power on 91 or would the octane simply have to be higher for over 600-640? The fuel system will be done way before a bigger blower goes on if thats what you mean. Ill be running the ported eaton for a while with my current fuel system (Boost a pump, 2400 maf, and 60 lb injectors) until I can afford to get a return style.
 

MalcolmV8

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Not necessarily shooting for 1000, just want to know it can handle it if I decided to go that that high. Id be more than happy with 800 or so, hell even 750 to the tires would be fine. I didn’t wanna up the compression which is why I went with the 15cc so that more boost could be ran later on if i wanted to go turbo (at least that was my understanding). Id like to go with a Gen 3 2.9 Whipple at around 800 or so all said and done. Is 800 achievable with the 2.9 on 91? Not really looking to run E85 but there are one or two gas stations that have it around here so not impossible. Will eventually get a return style fuel system from lethal with 60’s or 80’s.

800 whp on a 2.9 Whipple with 91 pump gas is not happening. When I ran my 2.9 on 91 pump gas at just 20 PSI of boost I had to pull timing to stop it from knocking. I want to say around 16 ~ 17 degrees timing was all the more I could do. Low to mid 600s is more realistic of what to expect on 91 with that blower.

If you're sticking to 91 pump gas a 2.9 Whipple is not the right blower. I've been there, done that. You can't spin it hard enough to make it enjoyable. A ported and pulley'd Eaton will be way more fun to drive and have a lot more torque and throttle response across the curve or bulk of your RPM range.
A 2.3 TVS will serve you much better. It will make more power across the RPM range and have more fun to drive factor if you care about that.

I've tried -19 CC dish myself when I went for the low compression to run more boost, just like your theory now. I hated it. Throttle response becomes laggy and you run a lot of boost which means more parasitic drag and losses turning over a blower hard. More compression and less boost is more efficient.

Now if you decide to go for E85 that opens up your options. I did a 10.5 CR flat top piston motor (heads, cams etc. built motor) and spun a 2.9 Whipple crusher to 30 PSI of boost. The top end was like an animal. That's where you really see the benefit of 2.9 Whipple. You know even spinning it that hard the low / mid range RPM was not as strong as it could be.
On that same 10.5 CR motor I bolted on a 2.3 TVS pulley'd to 24 PSI which was almost all I could get out of it on that motor and it was an absolute animal. I liked it a lot more than the 2.9 Whipple. The low / mid range was just so much stronger. The top was strong too but compare to that 2.9 at 30 PSI it felt flat up top.

You'll need to weigh options and fuels before grabbing a blower.
 

03_Zinc_Termi

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800 whp on a 2.9 Whipple with 91 pump gas is not happening. When I ran my 2.9 on 91 pump gas at just 20 PSI of boost I had to pull timing to stop it from knocking. I want to say around 16 ~ 17 degrees timing was all the more I could do. Low to mid 600s is more realistic of what to expect on 91 with that blower.

If you're sticking to 91 pump gas a 2.9 Whipple is not the right blower. I've been there, done that. You can't spin it hard enough to make it enjoyable. A ported and pulley'd Eaton will be way more fun to drive and have a lot more torque and throttle response across the curve or bulk of your RPM range.
A 2.3 TVS will serve you much better. It will make more power across the RPM range and have more fun to drive factor if you care about that.

I've tried -19 CC dish myself when I went for the low compression to run more boost, just like your theory now. I hated it. Throttle response becomes laggy and you run a lot of boost which means more parasitic drag and losses turning over a blower hard. More compression and less boost is more efficient.

Now if you decide to go for E85 that opens up your options. I did a 10.5 CR flat top piston motor (heads, cams etc. built motor) and spun a 2.9 Whipple crusher to 30 PSI of boost. The top end was like an animal. That's where you really see the benefit of 2.9 Whipple. You know even spinning it that hard the low / mid range RPM was not as strong as it could be.
On that same 10.5 CR motor I bolted on a 2.3 TVS pulley'd to 24 PSI which was almost all I could get out of it on that motor and it was an absolute animal. I liked it a lot more than the 2.9 Whipple. The low / mid range was just so much stronger. The top was strong too but compare to that 2.9 at 30 PSI it felt flat up top.

You'll need to weigh options and fuels before grabbing a blower.

Very good info! Ive been caught between those 2 blowers forever but was leaning toward the 2.9 because i thought id have room to grow and I wasn’t sure if i could get much more than 750 or so from the TVS... My pistons are 8.7.1 at 15cc according to the MHS site but I have been reading more and more about upping the compression vs more boost like your saying and would probably go with a higher CR if I hadn’t already dropped them off at the machine shop... Technically they haven’t been put in yet so its not too late! Lol

And yeah I do plan to do the fuel system etc before I go with a bigger blower. Ill be running the Eaton around for a while. 800 or so is just the max I wanna take it but wont be making it right away. Like I said, Id even be happy with 750 or so and the TVS seems much better suited for that power, its just beyond that idk how much more i could get from it.
 

03_Zinc_Termi

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You need to sit down and rethink some things. You are not going to make 800 to the tire on 60# or 80# injectors with pump gas. You might make 800 on 80's but only if you run good fuel like Q16/C16.

--Joe

What would you recommend? Or is 800 not possible on 91 even with a return style system and 80’s? E85 is also an option but only a handful of stations around me have it.


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03_Zinc_Termi

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And whoever else replies thank you for any feedback. If what Im wanting to do is out of reach with what Ive listed please feel free to post what a better option would be. Thanks!


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whitedevil95

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What would you recommend? Or is 800 not possible on 91 even with a return style system and 80’s? E85 is also an option but only a handful of stations around me have it.


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750-800 isn't gonna happen on 91 octane. The octane will be the limiting factor. Like i said ealier you will be stuck down with 17ish psi and 17 degrees timing unlesss you want to melt your brand new motor. That will give you around 600-640rwhp. If you want more you need more octane plain and simple.
 

MalcolmV8

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What would you recommend? Or is 800 not possible on 91 even with a return style system and 80’s? E85 is also an option but only a handful of stations around me have it.

Not Joe but no 91 is not going to do it. We already assume your fuel system is capable of delivering the fuel you need. Wether it's returnless or return etc. is not going to matter. 91 is 91 and just doesn't have the octane to run the boost and or timing you need to push big power from a PD blower car. You'll get a lot more whp from 91 with a turbo setup than a blower but that's a whole different subject.

If you're dead set on the 2.9 Whipple you need to bump your octane. You can do water / meth injection or torco. I've done a lot of water / meth setups as I did exactly that. Ran a 2.9 Whipple in 91 pump gas and then sprayed water / meth. Doing that I was able to go from 20 PSI at 16 ~ 17 degrees timing to 27 PSI at 24 degrees timing. So yes w/m injection works. I will warn you it gets expensive to do it right and it takes a lot of patients and time to dial in the jet(s), placement of the jet and of course it takes a lot of custom tuning to pull fuel from the injectors when the w/m is spraying to really dial in A/F ratio. Unless you want to mess with all that I suggest you just dump some torco in the tank and call it good.

Water / meth has the advantage of not spraying anything in the tank when out of boost so you're just running on straight 91. It's the reason I went that route as I was driving the car a ton at the time. In hind sight I'd skip all that headache a second time around and go torco. I've tuned cars with torco and it works great too.

Don't expect 800 whp from your 2.9 on pump gas with torco either. It does increase octane and allow more boost and timing but E85 will make a huge jump in power for you.
I tested this once on the dyno. I wish I had the charts in front of me and I'd quote you the exact numbers but it was around 60 ~ 70 whp increase. The car was at 27 PSI on 91 pump with w/m injection. I swapped over to E85 and exact same tune, same timing etc. just switched from 91 to E85. That E85 is amazing stuff. It's worth driving to only one or two pumps for.
 

03_Zinc_Termi

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750-800 isn't gonna happen on 91 octane. The octane will be the limiting factor. Like i said ealier you will be stuck down with 17ish psi and 17 degrees timing unlesss you want to melt your brand new motor. That will give you around 600-640rwhp. If you want more you need more octane plain and simple.

Ok that makes much more sense. Thank you


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MalcolmV8

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Few people have more experience with different combos than Malcolm

How does that saying go... Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. lol. I've certainly put together a lot of combos that didn't shine like how I wanted but that's how we learn. Keep trying.
 

03_Zinc_Termi

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Not Joe but no 91 is not going to do it. We already assume your fuel system is capable of delivering the fuel you need. Wether it's returnless or return etc. is not going to matter. 91 is 91 and just doesn't have the octane to run the boost and or timing you need to push big power from a PD blower car. You'll get a lot more whp from 91 with a turbo setup than a blower but that's a whole different subject.

If you're dead set on the 2.9 Whipple you need to bump your octane. You can do water / meth injection or torco. I've done a lot of water / meth setups as I did exactly that. Ran a 2.9 Whipple in 91 pump gas and then sprayed water / meth. Doing that I was able to go from 20 PSI at 16 ~ 17 degrees timing to 27 PSI at 24 degrees timing. So yes w/m injection works. I will warn you it gets expensive to do it right and it takes a lot of patients and time to dial in the jet(s), placement of the jet and of course it takes a lot of custom tuning to pull fuel from the injectors when the w/m is spraying to really dial in A/F ratio. Unless you want to mess with all that I suggest you just dump some torco in the tank and call it good.

Water / meth has the advantage of not spraying anything in the tank when out of boost so you're just running on straight 91. It's the reason I went that route as I was driving the car a ton at the time. In hind sight I'd skip all that headache a second time around and go torco. I've tuned cars with torco and it works great too.

Don't expect 800 whp from your 2.9 on pump gas with torco either. It does increase octane and allow more boost and timing but E85 will make a huge jump in power for you.
I tested this once on the dyno. I wish I had the charts in front of me and I'd quote you the exact numbers but it was around 60 ~ 70 whp increase. The car was at 27 PSI on 91 pump with w/m injection. I swapped over to E85 and exact same tune, same timing etc. just switched from 91 to E85. That E85 is amazing stuff. It's worth driving to only one or two pumps for.

Not dead set on the whipple, a TVS is definitely still on my mind, I guess bigger isnt always better. Starting to sound like Id be much better suited with the TVS for around 750 and if i ever wanted more Id just go Turbo at that point.


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MalcolmV8

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Not dead set on the whipple, a TVS is definitely still on my mind, I guess bigger isnt always better. Starting to sound like Id be much better suited with the TVS for around 750 and if i ever wanted more Id just go Turbo at that point.

Sounds like a solid plan. Each blower has their place. Your goals depend on what works best for you. You're right, it's not just a case of bigger is better.

Not to mention if you go for broke and start turning a 2.9 Whipple hard you better get ready to deal with lower pulley issues. I destroyed no less than 6 of them.

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Not to mention the 2.9 Crusher inlet rubs on your hood. Huge PITA and messes up the paint. I ended up cutting up my hood and making clearance for it. Fiberglassed it in and had to repaint the entire hood.

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Then there's the IAC motor smashing your a/c line issue. Probably not the best pic but see how the IAC motor is almost touching the a/c line? well as soon as the motor torques to the side when you nail the gas it rubs and smashes into that line. After a few thousand miles of driving you'll have a hole in the broken line.

kYtEUU-xiv2DplO4dn7cL2zsmz6dtCgPSO13IZe30IIHuA0fmFU8fFmRcBwqy42zhpZF10pp0hjzW9wRaZs=w816-h488-no.jpg


I worked with James over at Cobra Engineering and he made me an adapter plate to clock the IAC motor over at an angle to clear the a/c line and fix that issue. They are available on his site. You'll need one of those too.
 

03_Zinc_Termi

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Sounds like a solid plan. Each blower has their place. Your goals depend on what works best for you. You're right, it's not just a case of bigger is better.

Not to mention if you go for broke and start turning a 2.9 Whipple hard you better get ready to deal with lower pulley issues. I destroyed no less than 6 of them.

View attachment 1452630

View attachment 1452631

View attachment 1452632

View attachment 1452633

Not to mention the 2.9 Crusher inlet rubs on your hood. Huge PITA and messes up the paint. I ended up cutting up my hood and making clearance for it. Fiberglassed it in and had to repaint the entire hood.

View attachment 1452634

View attachment 1452635

Then there's the IAC motor smashing your a/c line issue. Probably not the best pic but see how the IAC motor is almost touching the a/c line? well as soon as the motor torques to the side when you nail the gas it rubs and smashes into that line. After a few thousand miles of driving you'll have a hole in the broken line.

View attachment 1452636

I worked with James over at Cobra Engineering and he made me an adapter plate to clock the IAC motor over at an angle to clear the a/c line and fix that issue. They are available on his site. You'll need one of those too.

Wow... So was there any issues with the TVS? Ive heard stories about the pulley issues with the Whipples and the crank snout cracking with the larger blowers too. Sounds like its more trouble than its worth, the 2.3 is sounding more and more tempting.
 

MalcolmV8

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No the 2.3 blowers are smaller and have less rotating mass and lower pulley issues are far and few with those. If you just grab the pulley of a 2.9 and a 2.3 on a work bench and spin them over you'll see. The 2.9 is a monster to turn over.
 

03_Zinc_Termi

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No the 2.3 blowers are smaller and have less rotating mass and lower pulley issues are far and few with those. If you just grab the pulley of a 2.9 and a 2.3 on a work bench and spin them over you'll see. The 2.9 is a monster to turn over.

Sounds like the TVS is the way to go. Anything else I should add to the motor while its still apart?
 
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