Hydrogen - Please Lord

There is a way forward for all the marque brands to keep ICE, will they do it?


Autoblog

Toyota and Yamaha to develop a hydrogen-powered V8 engine​

Zac Palmer - 3m ago

© Provided by Autoblog

History is proof that when Toyota and Yamaha team up to build an engine, the result is wildly cool. The Lexus LFA’s V10 was a shared effort between the two, and it’s still arguably the best-sounding production engine ever made. Today’s news concerns another engine developed between Toyota and Yamaha, but this one runs on hydrogen.

Yes, it’s weird. This engine is a 5.0-liter V8 that is designed to run on hydrogen, not gasoline. The engine being developed by Yamaha starts out life as the 5.0-liter V8 found in cars like the Lexus IS 500 F Sport Performance, RC F and others. Then, Yamaha makes modifications to the injectors, cylinder heads, intake manifold “and more.” As of now, Yamaha doesn’t seem keen on revealing all its secrets, but at least we know this is happening.

Power from this hydrogen-powered engine isn’t far off the figures Lexus is able to achieve with old-fashioned gasoline. When run on hydrogen, Yamaha claims 455 horsepower (at 6,800 rpm) and 398 pound-feet of torque (at 3,600 rpm).

This project dovetails off a joint announcement made by Toyota, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Subaru and Mazda that they would “begin discussions for conducting collaborative research into possible avenues for expanding the range of fuel options for internal combustion engines in the quest for carbon neutrality.”
“Hydrogen engines house the potential to be carbon-neutral while keeping our passion for the internal combustion engine alive at the same time,” said Yamaha Motor President Yoshihiro Hidaka. “Teaming up with companies with different corporate cultures and areas of expertise as well as growing the number of partners we have is how we want to lead the way into the future.”

Yamaha believes that a hydrogen-powered gasoline engine has the potential to keep the interesting parts of a gasoline engine alive — the sound, power band, feel — all while being carbon neutral. The “harmonic high-frequency exhaust note” from a unique 8-into-1 header is cited as one reason to be excited about a future hydrogen-powered V8.

“I started to see that engines using only hydrogen for fuel actually had very fun, easy-to-use performance characteristics,” says Takeshi Yamada from Yamaha’s Technical Research & Development Center’s Automotive Development Section. “Hydrogen engines have an innately friendly feel that makes them easy to use even without resorting to electronic driving aids. Everyone who came to test-drive the prototype car would start off somewhat skeptical, but emerged from the car with a big smile on their face at the end. As I watched this, I started to believe that there is actually enormous potential in the characteristics unique to hydrogen engines instead of simply treating it as a substitute for gasoline.”

No, they won't do it.

Government has already gone past the PONR on the demolishing of ICE.

13COBRA said:

No, they won't do it.

Government has already gone past the PONR on the demolishing of ICE.

Click to expand...

LOL, this guy knows everything. Governments can incentivize and make mandates, its the people that are in control. Will the people trade vehicles that have zero restrictions for a vehicle that takes hours to charge? Time will tell.

Good shit.

SSSSSSSSSSSSVT said:

LOL, this guy knows everything. Governments can incentivize and make mandates, its the people that are in control. Will the people trade vehicles that have zero restrictions for a vehicle that takes hours to charge? Time will tell.

Click to expand...

So, you think the government will turn the ship away from going EV because the people push back?

LOL Yeah, there are still mask mandates all across the country.

Doesn't mention any of the downside of dealing with hydrogen in the real world. It isn't safe because it has the widest range of ignition of any combustible gas. Worse, hydrogen can switch from ordinary burning to detonation, an explosion, while in mid burn, with no compression necessary. In other words, hydrogen burns or explodes any chance it gets. Range is poor unless you're cooling it to liquid states, which is expensive, and spilled cryogens are a hazard all their own, and spilled hydrogen will often BLEVE. You can store it in solution, but you have to have an entire mechanism to handle that. Yes, you can catalytically crack water back into hydrogen and oxygen. You lose energy in the process. Water is the "ash" of a hydrogen and oxygen fire. No one has yet found a way to convert a tank of water into a useful supply of gas to feed a car engine. They may, but we don't have it, yet.

Haven't even got to: "hydrogen embrittlement of metals." Since hydrogen is the smallest atomic element, it often sits quite happily in the spaces in between larger atoms and molecules of alloys. Like steel, iron, and most other metals.

Then you have to transport the stuff. And refuel your vehicle. And not get in a wreck that compromises the hydrogen storage tank.

So, good luck with hydrogen. Great stuff, many uses, poor choice for passenger vehicle fuels.

FCEVs will only arrive and be prevalent when class 7/8 trucks switch over to it.

James Snover said:

Doesn't mention any of the downside of dealing with hydrogen in the real world. It isn't safe because it has the widest range of ignition of any combustible gas. Worse, hydrogen can switch from ordinary burning to detonation, an explosion, while in mid burn, with no compression necessary. In other words, hydrogen burns or explodes any chance it gets. Range is poor unless you're cooling it to liquid states, which is expensive, and spilled cryogens are a hazard all their own, and spilled hydrogen will often BLEVE. You can store it in solution, but you have to have an entire mechanism to handle that. Yes, you can catalytically crack water back into hydrogen and oxygen. You lose energy in the process. Water is the "ash" of a hydrogen and oxygen fire. No one has yet found a way to convert a tank of water into a useful supply of gas to feed a car engine. They may, but we don't have it, yet.

Haven't even got to: "hydrogen embrittlement of metals." Since hydrogen is the smallest atomic element, it often sits quite happily in the spaces in between larger atoms and molecules of alloys. Like steel, iron, and most other metals.

Then you have to transport the stuff. And refuel your vehicle. And not get in a wreck that compromises the hydrogen storage tank.

So, good luck with hydrogen. Great stuff, many uses, poor choice for passenger vehicle fuels.

Click to expand...

And one other item: somehow you would have to have a supply of hydrogen equivalent to today's production of gasoline. At that level of production, the best thing to get hydrogen from would be ... wait for it ... oil! Plain old oil holds tons of hydrogen, and its easy to get it loose (relatively) from the carbon. Crazy thing is, we already have a widespread, established, mature industry that has developed techniques for safe handling of the stuff over a century, and can provide the energy to the public in a dangerous, yes, but much safer form than hydrogen: gasoline!

My hope is still pinned on Porsche's eFuel:

Internal combustion may be yestercentury's technology, but cars and trucks running on dinosaur juice will continue prowling the world's roadways for decades to come -- though they may get a lot cleaner in the coming years. Porsche, along with a constellation of partners, is working to commercialize a carbon-neutral liquid fuel, which could be an environmental game-changer if scaled up.

Plainly named but patently cool, eFuel is a synthetic gasoline that burns exactly like the traditional stuff yet has minimal environmental impact. "We pursue eFuels as a complement [to electrics]," said Jan Ohmstedt, project manager for Porsche's eFuels project, at a media event. He explained this is an innovative way of cleaning up existing internal-combustion-powered vehicles before they eventually get replaced by cleaner electrics. eFuel could also be used to efficiently power classic cars, keeping our automotive heritage alive -- and sustainable -- well into the future. This point is particularly near and dear to Porsche, as around 70% of the cars it's ever built are still on the road.

Click to expand...

Plainly put: If Porsche succeeds with their eFuel program, we can keep our current engines as is, but produce zero carbon emissions from them by burning eFuel. The process of creating eFuel is also much cleaner than the current refining process.

13COBRA said:

No, they won't do it.

Government has already gone past the PONR on the demolishing of ICE.

Click to expand...

Hydrogen Infrastructure is being planned and built to supply long haul trucking fuel cells. Does that imply enough to support auto's? I agree it is a long shot. But I also think hydrogen issues are more easily solved than increasing battery density, urban no inside parking and rare earth mining issues for full scale EV production. Many countries and locations have declined the honor of strip mining their landscape and current mining location are cutting back, not expanding.

@James Snover Good and valid comments however, engineering fiddly bits!

I merely posit that a twelve-cylinder Ferrari running on hydrogen will be a LOT more desirable than the EV version.

James Snover said:

And one other item: somehow you would have to have a supply of hydrogen equivalent to today's production of gasoline. At that level of production, the best thing to get hydrogen from would be ... wait for it ... oil! Plain old oil holds tons of hydrogen, and its easy to get it loose (relatively) from the carbon. Crazy thing is, we already have a widespread, established, mature industry that has developed techniques for safe handling of the stuff over a century, and can provide the energy to the public in a dangerous, yes, but much safer form than hydrogen: gasoline!

Click to expand...

Green has never been anything but a money flim flam scheme since the beginning.

Sadly, while it may have a slim chance.... I doubt it. Too much money has been spent on pushing EV to the general public already.

13COBRA said:

Sadly, while it may have a slim chance.... I doubt it. Too much money has been spent on pushing EV to the general public already.

Click to expand...

It really boils down to what happens when all the battery plants come on line to meet auto and utility scale battery storage production. Based on current mine approval, it will get interesting. Every proposed mine I have seen come up on my investing website has been shot down, including one right here in MN.

Weather Man said:

It really boils down to what happens when all the battery plants come on line to meet auto and utility scale battery storage production. Based on current mine approval, it will get interesting. Every proposed mine I have seen come up on my investing website has been shot down, including one right here in MN.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree with that...but with the amount of money the public and private sectors has burned to make this happen, they will make it happen.

13COBRA said:

I don't disagree with that...but with the amount of money the public and private sectors has burned to make this happen, they will make it happen.

Click to expand...

Green is a religion; common sense has zero to do with what is going on. If it were really about the environment, it would be all about hybrids. If they make cars so expensive no one can drive, the greens are Jim Dang happy as hell.

Weather Man said:

Green is a religion; common sense has zero to do with what is going on. If it were really about the environment, it would be all about hybrids. If they make cars so expensive no one can drive, the greens are Jim Dang happy as hell.

Click to expand...

Completely agree. It's just money at this point.

Agenda 21, style. lol

SSSSSSSSSSSSVT said:

its the people that are in control.

Click to expand...

That's the great myth of America. The people are no longer in control. Look what happened when the people told the system to **** itself an voted Trump in......4 long years of backstabbing, espionage, treason, obstruction, etc.

The people lost control of this country a long time ago.

Hydrogen cars already exist and are on sale today. See Toyota Mirai

While the government may want to try to mandate EV's, the overwhelming majority of consumers do not want them.

Also there are those pesky little things like energy production capacity and the transmission of that energy.

Any considerable increase of the current fleet to EV's is a dream that's decades off at best.

So unless there is a bunch of new nuclear plants coming online soon, and a massive expansion of the current grid. Or they can somehow get rid of the little people owning cars. It's all just vaporware.

carrrnuttt said:

My hope is still pinned on Porsche's eFuel:

Porsche's eFuel could be a climate game-changer

Carbon-neutral gasoline? Sounds good to us.

www.cnet.com

Plainly put: If Porsche succeeds with their eFuel program, we can keep our current engines as is, but produce zero carbon emissions from them by burning eFuel. The process of creating eFuel is also much cleaner than the current refining process.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't hold your breath. Even a lot of the ICE fuels that are carbon neutral or even carbon negative are being pushed out. It's crazy that they brand ethanol or biomethane as "fossil fuel" just because it's a hydrocarbon. Regulating agencies have made it clear it isn't so much about overall emissions- it's about what's perceived as "greener."

That said, when it comes to hydrogen it's a really hard sell to begin with considering the energy density. Not just when it comes to storage, but as far as producing power as well. Couple that with the fact fuel cells are already waiting, and it's unlikely it would be pursued if and when the infrastructure is established. And that is a huge if, given the safety and logistics necessary for it.

Automakers hedging their bets maybe?
https://www.motor1.com/

motor1.com

Renault Concept Teased With Combustion Engine Running On Hydrogen​

Adrian Padeanu - 10h ago

© Motor1.com

Toyota is also experimenting with hydrogen-fueled ICEs.​

Not that long ago, we were exclusively associating hydrogen cars with EVs such as the Toyota Mirai. However, things changed when Toyota announced an innovative powertrain consisting of an internal combustion engine feeding on hydrogen. It's more than just an announcement as cars have been tested already, including a Corolla and the smaller Yaris supermini. Both have a three-cylinder, 1.6-liter turbocharged engine sourced from the GR Yaris.

It would seem Toyota is not the only automaker to experiment with this type of powertrain. Renault is teasing a new concept car equipped with a "hydrogen engine." The use of the word "engine" tells us the shadowy vehicle seen here doesn't have electric motors, but rather an ICE running on hydrogen instead of gasoline or diesel. The company with the diamond logo goes on to say it's an "unprecedented concept car," which further makes us believe it's not a typical fuel cell hydrogen vehicle.

• Renault Nissan Mitsubishi Alliance Announces 35 New EV Models By 2030
• Renault To Become Electric-Only Brand In Europe By 2030

The slim LED headlights and illuminated logo make us think of the Megane E-Tech Electric, but with significantly bigger daytime running lights where you'd normally find air intakes. To the surprise of no one, it appears to be a crossover. Side cameras are no longer a concept-only feature since there are quite a few production cars that do away with glass mirrors. In fact, it was only a few days ago when Hyundai revealed plans to introduce digital mirrors in Europe for the Ioniq 5 later this year.
Renault remains coy on details about the concept, but we do know the full reveal is scheduled to take place sometime in May. When the wraps will come off, prepare to see "onboard technological innovations" for the safety of those inside the cabin.
Source: Renault