Installing ATS Brembos on the Cobra.

Mustang5L5 · Mar 31, 2021

Rotor thickness shouldn't matter much between brands. Not enough to make an impact as they really can't vary too much on rotor specs from OEM.

You're running into what ultimately killed the project for me. Too many spacers to fit the wheels I wanted to run caused the wheel to get pushed out too far to my liking.

_Lariat · Mar 31, 2021

Mustang5L5 said:
Rotor thickness shouldn't matter much between brands. Not enough to make an impact as they really can't vary too much on rotor specs from OEM.

You're running into what ultimately killed the project for me. Too many spacers to fit the wheels I wanted to run caused the wheel to get pushed out too far to my liking.

Could a guy have the spindles on the car machined slightly along with the calipers to bring the caliper back towards the frame? I'm kind of spitballing here on that. Understandably the goal of this mod is to be a "bolt in with limited modifications." Doing this could allow for the use of the s197 GT rotor. Unless I'm thinking backwards here.

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Mustang5L5 · Mar 31, 2021

_Lariat said:
Could a guy have the spindles on the car machined slightly along with the calipers to bring the caliper back towards the frame? I'm kind of spitballing here on that. Understandably the goal of this mod is to be a "bolt in with limited modifications." Doing this could allow for the use of the s197 GT rotor. Unless I'm thinking backwards here.

Sent from my SM-G986U using the svtperformance.com mobile app

You really are limited to what you can do. At some point the rotor will be centered and that’s as far as you can go. So whether you use the rotor spacer or machine the calipers you will hit that point when you can only go so far and you need space to clear the spokes.

Best you can do is machine the caliper slightly and at least eliminate using that spacer. The. You can use a single spacer between the wheel and rotor.

My calipers were machined. I’m dealing with a fox body, so front wheel clearance is very tight and I have little room for error. With an SN95 you have a little more leeway

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lowranger96 · Mar 31, 2021

_Lariat said:
Could a guy have the spindles on the car machined slightly along with the calipers to bring the caliper back towards the frame? I'm kind of spitballing here on that. Understandably the goal of this mod is to be a "bolt in with limited modifications." Doing this could allow for the use of the s197 GT rotor. Unless I'm thinking backwards here.

Sent from my SM-G986U using the svtperformance.com mobile app

I’m having some shims quoted/laser cut for the s197 gt rotor useable. They will hopefully be available soon

coposrv · Mar 31, 2021

Does anyone have any real data testing these brakes against the cobra PBRs?

I emailed Maximum Motorsports a while back with some suspension ideas and questions, and along the way this set up came up.

I’m going to paraphrase here but they said they know about the swap and they were really against it. It was said this It ruins the front rear bias and actually INCREASES stopping distance.

I had a feeling this swap was more looks than function but I was really surprised to get that answer from them. Now I’m really curious.

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Termn804 · Mar 31, 2021

Mustang5L5 said:
Rotor thickness shouldn't matter much between brands. Not enough to make an impact as they really can't vary too much on rotor specs from OEM.

You're running into what ultimately killed the project for me. Too many spacers to fit the wheels I wanted to run caused the wheel to get pushed out too far to my liking.

I got my hands on a set of 1/8th & 1/4 inch spacers. With the 1/4 inch spacer I sit about 1mm away from the front caliper face. Still have 6-7 full turn threads on lug nuts with tightened down wheel, but I am now debating back and forth with pressing forward with the modification. Seems like too much work to make these work. Really wish I could see stopping results to see if it’s 100% worth it. I’m sitting at around $650-700 with everything now, so I really wanted to make this set up work.

Blkkbgt · Apr 1, 2021

coposrv said:
Does anyone have any real data testing these brakes against the cobra PBRs?

I emailed Maximum Motorsports a while back with some suspension ideas and questions, and along the way this set up came up.

I’m going to paraphrase here but they said they know about the swap and they were really against it. It was said this It ruins the front rear bias and actually INCREASES stopping distance.

I had a feeling this swap was more looks than function but I was really surprised to get that answer from them. Now I’m really curious.

Sent from my iPhone using svtperformance.com

Did you inform them of the upgraded rear calipers that FIX the bias?

According to the bias chart on a corral thread Mustang5L5 linked the bias was on the limit to begin with and adding the larger rear calipers makes is nearly perfect.

I am not flat out saying MM is wrong but they may not have all the information either.

If you search all my posts regarding this modification you'll clearly see I was a skeptic from the words "Cheap Brembos" and I've come around after letting everything develop and have nearly ZERO concerns with strength or bias.

Mustang5L5 · Apr 1, 2021

I talked to MM about this. I do understand why they state that. Overall I have a pretty neutral opinion on the swap for a few reasons.

I can expand a little bit more tomorrow when on a PC.

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coposrv · Apr 1, 2021

Blkkbgt said:
Did you inform them of the upgraded rear calipers that FIX the bias?

According to the bias chart on a corral thread Mustang5L5 linked the bias was on the limit to begin with and adding the larger rear calipers makes is nearly perfect.

I am not flat out saying MM is wrong but they may not have all the information either.

If you search all my posts regarding this modification you'll clearly see I was a skeptic from the words "Cheap Brembos" and I've come around after letting everything develop and have nearly ZERO concerns with strength or bias.

Yes, I asked about matching the fronts with a taurus rear. Then the conversation shifted from problems with heavy front bias to not liking the pad modifications needed. With that I strongly agree.

Again this was some time ago.

I was interested in the swap originally. I had intentions to mock everything up and use my bridgeport to machine my own parts. At this point I’m not against it, I’m just not sure there real gains to be had to justify the effort. That’s why I am looking for some real data.

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Mustang5L5 · Apr 1, 2021

So this is about the closest I've found to "data". Take it with a HUGE grain of salt due to the unscientific method used, but it illustrates exactly what could happen with this swap. Keep in mind, this is a lighter fox-body, no ABS, and standard 38mm rears. It illustrates perfectly that tires are the limiting factor when it comes to brakes on most of these Mustangs.

You can skip over most of the video. 1:40 is with standard cobra brakes and 15:08 is the start of the Brembo "test". Again, avoid reading too far into this. Take it as an "observation" short of any true measured data.

Granted, this might not be as much of an issue with an SN95 with more weight over the front wheels, wider tires, and ABS. That's why i say take the above with a grain of salt.

The pad overhang did bother me which is why i explored using the 2011+ non-brembo 13.2" rotor. Folks have used it either by machining the caliper down slightly (i never looked at machining the spindle a bit as well) or running a spacer under the rotor. This seems to solve the pad overhang issue completely but i've never seen someone come forward with pics and details to say "Yes, this works if you guy xyz and do abc" so this is something i just don't have enough knowledge on to give a solid answer. In my research, I have found some claiming the BAER calipers also have overhang. See post #11
https://svtperformance.com/threads/baer-6p-front-fitment-issues-17-wheels.1179109/

43mm rear calipers are necessary IMHO to have a chance at getting the bias in the ballpark. That's just based on my napkin calcs for bias. Keep in mind, this is going to vary depending on models. Bias on a 2004 Cobra is going to be different than on a 1988 coupe

Spacers, machining, spoke clearance, etc. All that's been covered. Going to vary heavily on what wheels you run, the suspension setup, etc. and individual preference on what they would like to do to physically mount the calipers.

Master cylinder options, especially with the 43mm rears. In researching hydroboost, i've discovered it's a different animal than vacuum boosted systems. It's a little more "forgiving" so not a huge deal in terms of going with the larger calipers. Vacuum boosted folks will need to upside the MC depending on what they have on the car.

Getting back to what i initially started with here, most Mustangs are going to be limited by tires. The standard Cobra brakes will probably be adequate for most. They fit well under most 17" wheels, you can run the 17" spare with them, parts are available everywhere for them. It's an effective upgrade or standard brake setup. I do think they are not adequate for the 03/04 cobra. That car should have come with the 00R Brembo from the factory. They have wider tires up front, more weight over the front wheels and would take advantage of a better brake system.

Again, I have a pretty neutral opinion on the setup. I think it can be made to work well on some cars with some thought, and other times I think it's way too much brake for other cars. My honest reason for not running the setup after putting in a lot of work is 2 reasons. #1 was the fit and offset. This isn't the brembos fault completely, but due to changing the K-member, a-arms and spindles on my car to a setup that pushed the wheels further out. This is unique to my car and every millimeter is crticial. I need the front wheels to come in, so pushing them out is not something I can really do. 2nd main reason is that my fox body is light, doesn't have ABS, and i'm limited to a 235 or 245 tire up front. If I get on the brakes heavy now with standard cobra brakes, I can lock them up. I'm limited by tires really, and my big fear was getting into a freeway panic stop situation like shown at 15:08 in the above video.

That's why I never installed this setup. It's not the smartest choice for me. If I had a 2004 Cobra....it would be a different story I promise.

98 svt · Apr 1, 2021

As always, a great and informative post, Mike.

I'm putting the parts together to try this out on the 98. Where did you get the machining done? Not sure where to go locally.

Also, has anyone listed a part # for thr correct banjo bolts? I have new SS lines I installed last year, so I'd like to just swap the bolt.

Mustang5L5 · Apr 1, 2021

98 svt said:
I'm putting the parts together to try this out on the 98. Where did you get the machining done? Not sure where to go locally..

I did it myself. I had access to a mill. I made my own inserts

98 svt · Apr 1, 2021

Mustang5L5 said:
I did it myself. I had access to a mill. I made my own inserts

Ah OK I gotcha. Any idea on where I can take them? Just any machine shop?

Mustang5L5 · Apr 1, 2021

98 svt said:
Ah OK I gotcha. Any idea on where I can take them? Just any machine shop?

Any machine shop with a mill can do it. It's just a question of finding one willing to do low-volume one-off work like this. Don't be surprised if they charge you an hourly rate that seems rather high. I think it took me a little over an hour to do mine.

I don't really have any I can recommend locally. Most of the ones I deal with in the area are geared to high-volume work.

Blkkbgt · Apr 2, 2021

coposrv said:
Yes, I asked about matching the fronts with a taurus rear. Then the conversation shifted from problems with heavy front bias to not liking the pad modifications needed. With that I strongly agree.

Again this was some time ago.

I was interested in the swap originally. I had intentions to mock everything up and use my bridgeport to machine my own parts. At this point I’m not against it, I’m just not sure there real gains to be had to justify the effort. That’s why I am looking for some real data.

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First off let's he honest about who you're discussing this mod with. MM builds great quality suspension components, they do not design or build brake setups.

With that said I don't think anyone can expect them to endorse a modification such as this. From a business perspective endorsing it has some potential legal ramifications as well.

You also can't expect them to endorse something they've never put their hands on or run on even a street car.

Going back to the pad trimming issue so to speak I believe it to be entirely pointless if using the lowranger kit.

First off it is not needed because it's so minimal but if trimming the pads were an issue Porterfield wouldn't offer it, period.

Going back to the bias issue. I am one of the few if not only person who is NOT an engineer to run bias calculations. What I have found and figured out is very close to being inline with other information posted by more qualified individuals than I.

With the bias fixed I do not see how there is a negative or draw back of any kind running this setup. As long as the bias issue is addressed I call BS that the stopping distance will increase and if so I'd like to know how specifically.

With all that said I have ZERO concerns running this setup and actually pulled the trigger on everything short of new rotors.

All I can say at this point is do what makes you comfortable because in the end it's your ass behind the wheel and it's your car.

Blkkbgt · Apr 2, 2021

lowranger96 said:
I’m having some shims quoted/laser cut for the s197 gt rotor useable. They will hopefully be available soon

What's the total thickness and cost going to be?

You can put me down for a set if you're taking orders already.

coposrv · Apr 3, 2021

Blkkbgt said:
First off let's he honest about who you're discussing this mod with. MM builds great quality suspension components, they do not design or build brake setups.

With that said I don't think anyone can expect them to endorse a modification such as this. From a business perspective endorsing it has some potential legal ramifications as well.

You also can't expect them to endorse something they've never put their hands on or run on even a street car.

Going back to the pad trimming issue so to speak I believe it to be entirely pointless if using the lowranger kit.

First off it is not needed because it's so minimal but if trimming the pads were an issue Porterfield wouldn't offer it, period.

Going back to the bias issue. I am one of the few if not only person who is NOT an engineer to run bias calculations. What I have found and figured out is very close to being inline with other information posted by more qualified individuals than I.

With the bias fixed I do not see how there is a negative or draw back of any kind running this setup. As long as the bias issue is addressed I call BS that the stopping distance will increase and if so I'd like to know how specifically.

With all that said I have ZERO concerns running this setup and actually pulled the trigger on everything short of new rotors.

All I can say at this point is do what makes you comfortable because in the end it's your ass behind the wheel and it's your car.

1) I was aware that MM would most likely not endorse this. I wasn’t looking for their blessing just their experience with it and if they had real data. Not guys on a forum saying it “feels” better.

2) They put their hands on it. By testing.

3) The increase in stopping distance is when the rears where not addressed.

4) Did you actually read my post?

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coposrv · Apr 3, 2021

Mustang5L5 said:
So this is about the closest I've found to "data". Take it with a HUGE grain of salt due to the unscientific method used, but it illustrates exactly what could happen with this swap. Keep in mind, this is a lighter fox-body, no ABS, and standard 38mm rears. It illustrates perfectly that tires are the limiting factor when it comes to brakes on most of these Mustangs.

You can skip over most of the video. 1:40 is with standard cobra brakes and 15:08 is the start of the Brembo "test". Again, avoid reading too far into this. Take it as an "observation" short of any true measured data.

Granted, this might not be as much of an issue with an SN95 with more weight over the front wheels, wider tires, and ABS. That's why i say take the above with a grain of salt.

The pad overhang did bother me which is why i explored using the 2011+ non-brembo 13.2" rotor. Folks have used it either by machining the caliper down slightly (i never looked at machining the spindle a bit as well) or running a spacer under the rotor. This seems to solve the pad overhang issue completely but i've never seen someone come forward with pics and details to say "Yes, this works if you guy xyz and do abc" so this is something i just don't have enough knowledge on to give a solid answer. In my research, I have found some claiming the BAER calipers also have overhang. See post #11
https://svtperformance.com/threads/baer-6p-front-fitment-issues-17-wheels.1179109/

43mm rear calipers are necessary IMHO to have a chance at getting the bias in the ballpark. That's just based on my napkin calcs for bias. Keep in mind, this is going to vary depending on models. Bias on a 2004 Cobra is going to be different than on a 1988 coupe

Spacers, machining, spoke clearance, etc. All that's been covered. Going to vary heavily on what wheels you run, the suspension setup, etc. and individual preference on what they would like to do to physically mount the calipers.

Master cylinder options, especially with the 43mm rears. In researching hydroboost, i've discovered it's a different animal than vacuum boosted systems. It's a little more "forgiving" so not a huge deal in terms of going with the larger calipers. Vacuum boosted folks will need to upside the MC depending on what they have on the car.

Getting back to what i initially started with here, most Mustangs are going to be limited by tires. The standard Cobra brakes will probably be adequate for most. They fit well under most 17" wheels, you can run the 17" spare with them, parts are available everywhere for them. It's an effective upgrade or standard brake setup. I do think they are not adequate for the 03/04 cobra. That car should have come with the 00R Brembo from the factory. They have wider tires up front, more weight over the front wheels and would take advantage of a better brake system.

Again, I have a pretty neutral opinion on the setup. I think it can be made to work well on some cars with some thought, and other times I think it's way too much brake for other cars. My honest reason for not running the setup after putting in a lot of work is 2 reasons. #1 was the fit and offset. This isn't the brembos fault completely, but due to changing the K-member, a-arms and spindles on my car to a setup that pushed the wheels further out. This is unique to my car and every millimeter is crticial. I need the front wheels to come in, so pushing them out is not something I can really do. 2nd main reason is that my fox body is light, doesn't have ABS, and i'm limited to a 235 or 245 tire up front. If I get on the brakes heavy now with standard cobra brakes, I can lock them up. I'm limited by tires really, and my big fear was getting into a freeway panic stop situation like shown at 15:08 in the above video.

That's why I never installed this setup. It's not the smartest choice for me. If I had a 2004 Cobra....it would be a different story I promise.

Thank you. I’ll watch the video later tonite.

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Blkkbgt · Apr 3, 2021

coposrv said:
4) Did you actually read my post?

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Yes I did actually. From my perspective you came in here claiming this kit was all show and no go, or stop so to speak and used a conversation you had with MM as justification regarding your stance on the setup.

I simply posted my point of view and explained it with additional information and some logic.

lowranger96 · May 8, 2021

Blkkbgt said:
What's the total thickness and cost going to be?

You can put me down for a set if you're taking orders already.

$25+ shipping for the pair, they are 3/16” thick

Installing ATS Brembos on the Cobra.

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