Panhard Bar vs. Watts Link

Black Cobra '99

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To sum up the articles posted. MM argues that the panhard bar set up has minimal lateral movement and its cheap. Griggs argues that the advantage of the watts is instant center migration and instant center adjustability.

So, I think for the street whats important is the lateral movement and with rod ends the panhard bar should be enough. However, for the track the watts should be superior. This is based on theory of course.

EDIT: Griggs also argues chassis mounted watts is inferior to diff mounted watts and panhard bar.
 

32V SVT

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I have the Fays2 from Shelby, and it's the Steel unit. For my seat of the pants feel, this unit is far superior to a Panhard bar.
I had the SVT Performance Pack on my car, went to the Bilstein B12 suspension kit with matched Eibach springs (Lowering the car) and used
the laser alignment system commonly used at most alignment shops today to center the rear axle, and this has totally changed the feel of my S197.
I had an IRS 03 Terminator before this, and I honestly feel the road better in my Shelby over the IRS in my Terminator. I mean we're talking two different
generations of cars, but I feel the car launches harder, and gives me great input. Money well spent in my mind. Don't forget to purchase sub frame connectors too!
These also help firm up your feel for the road.

That's my 2 cents.

-George
 

Stangra

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Here is some factual data on the BMR poly-bushed adjustable panhard bar setup on my car. At static ride height without driver, my panhard bar is nearly level and axle is perfectly centered as it sits on my garage floor. With OE diameter tires and 1-5/8” suspension drop in the rear, the axle mounting point and chassis mounting point are 11-1/2” and 11-7/16” respectively, making my rear roll center right at 11-1/2” +/-. Realizing that no two combinations will be a true apples to apples comparison, I would like to see a rear roll center height comparison from a forum member with a properly installed watts link.

Not a direct measurement but a good guess:
My 305/35-18 Tire has a 13.2" radius (center of axle) minus maybe 4" at lowest position = potential 9.2" roll center?

CorteX Watts Link installation
20180708_180758_HDR.jpg
20180821_120442 - Copy B.jpg




...I ended up going with panhard as I have diff cooler and did not want to swap out my cover.
Axle cover for CorteX Watts Link has provisions for oil cooler lines, temp sensor and drain plug
 

SCGallo2

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^^^Nice hardware! I have been doing some reading online… appears that having the left and right links parallel at ride height with rear end centered is the best initial setting. Moving the center pivot (roll center) up or down from that point will help counter understeer or oversteer, so I can see the advantage of adjustability. On street driven cars, it is likely that only extremely lowered cars would use the lowest hole setting.
 

rwleonard

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"EDIT: Griggs also argues chassis mounted watts is inferior to diff mounted watts and panhard bar."

Yup, and Sam Strano likes the chassis mount. Go figure!
 

BAS

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I came out of an IRS sports car into a 13GT500 and was quite disappointed with the handling of the car when I first got it. I put every BMR component on and was still not happy with the panhard set up on the SRA

After a lot of internet research I fell upon the watts link as a possible solution and looked at a few options at the time. The CorteX racing solution stood out to me as a well considered piece of engineering - mounted on the diff with all of the necessary cooling attachments. The unit, I believe, is also used on some supersnake installs (although I may be wrong)

My personal experience was that the difference was night and day better with the watts link. Wheel hop disappeared and my confidence of what was happening at the back end increased exponentially. It felt better than IRS

One video that really sold me was this


Note that I think they upgrade to coilovers too. However, 1.3G cornering performance is pretty impressive with back to back runs




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Norm Peterson

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To sum up the articles posted. MM argues that the panhard bar set up has minimal lateral movement and its cheap. Griggs argues that the advantage of the watts is instant center migration and instant center adjustability.

So, I think for the street whats important is the lateral movement and with rod ends the panhard bar should be enough. However, for the track the watts should be superior. This is based on theory of course.

EDIT: Griggs also argues chassis mounted watts is inferior to diff mounted watts and panhard bar.
I hadn't seen either of those references before, so I'm going to have to spend more time with them. But MM's point regarding lateral axle motion due to the PHB working in an arc being only noise compared to the lateral tire distortion that's obviously happening at the same time is well taken.

I've been aware of Watts links since before getting my '08 (which I bought new). But I personally feel that a mod like that need only be done when you can recognize that something about the car is causing a limit that the proposed mod can really fix.

As a (now-retired) engineer, it's going to take more than videos from companies with parts to sell and testimonials (however well-intended, I'm not flaming anybody with that). Basically I need to recognize the need myself, and work out for myself whether any particular mod is likely to help. By way of example, I didn't even swap the truly soft OE suspension springs out on my '08 until the amount of nose dive under braking started feeling like too much.

Most of my track time has been on OE springs and the OE PHB (though I did do a cheapie mod to stiffen the PHB's bushings). A little more sta-bar (Strano's bars), better dampers (yellows), and out-of-Ford-spec alignment settings are basically all I've done to the suspension. Well, there's the 285/35-18 MPSS tires on 18x11 Forgestars . . .

Anyway, with my car in the above condition I have Aim Solo datalogging showing peak lateral g's of 1.3 and better, and over 1.2 at nearly 100 mph. The track is fairly flat and my car only rolls about 2°/g, so I doubt there's much error involved.

My whole point being that at an indicated 1.3g, it's not the PHB that's limiting you.

1.30g.jpg

15-2-4 T'bolt T12.jpg


I was just driving the track in those pics, no nail-biter moments at all.


Norm
 

Steve@TF

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oh shit its on! Race Wars! Race Wars!!


ive had both. i had the MM adj panhard bar and then jumped to BMR axle mounted watts link.

the first thing i noticed, how HEAVY the bmr unit is. compared to a simple bar from MM lol. the BMR unit must have added 50lbs to the rear end.

i definitely notice it on the street and freeways when there are big dips especially in turns. it also helps when youre running wide/fat tires on the rear and sit low. no chance of the axle moving sideways and putting the tire into the fender. had that happen to my car when i had the adj panhard bar (when running less than optimal tire/offset set up). was it worth it? sure, especially since i got the bmr watts right when it came out and got it cheap. for a little while i regretted selling the whiteline watts i had but it broke on my buddy who bought it off me. he reinforced the break/weld and it was good after that. they have a great design for a street car. and very light.

i vaguely remember discussing the bmr axle mounted watts vs diff mounted. i think it was with kelly at bmr, maybe van. he said the diff mount was definitely better but if you dont want to mess with the diff than the axle version works well. (just not AS good). unfortunately it adds a lot of weight due to the beefy steel brackets. something i didnt think about until my buddy who was installing it said "why are you adding all this weight to your car?" lol. if i had to do it again, i would probably go for the diff mounted unit. perhaps even still the whiteline due to their poly bushings. i dont want any sperical joints on my car.
 

Robert M

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.......and I still ask, what about the guys who drag race, or even the street guys who drive their car "with spirit" on the street?

If lowering the rear body causes the panhard bar to push the body sideways, I believe to the right? What happens when the car rises in the front and dips (lowers) in the rear (normal weight transfer) with spirited acceleration which I would guess is very common with these cars, especially with a manual transmission? Does the rear body push to the right upon every shift as the car lifts in the front and dips (lowers) in the rear? It may not be much, but isn't that a "side effect" (no pun intended) of the panhard bar? and the Watts Link keeps the axle moving up and down only, with no side effect except added weight of a Watts Link structure?

R
 

me32

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.......and I still ask, what about the guys who drag race, or even the street guys who drive their car "with spirit" on the street?

If lowering the rear body causes the panhard bar to push the body sideways, I believe to the right? What happens when the car rises in the front and dips (lowers) in the rear (normal weight transfer) with spirited acceleration which I would guess is very common with these cars, especially with a manual transmission? Does the rear body push to the right upon every shift as the car lifts in the front and dips (lowers) in the rear? It may not be much, but isn't that a "side effect" (no pun intended) of the panhard bar? and the Watts Link keeps the axle moving up and down only, with no side effect except added weight of a Watts Link structure?

R

Do you have pictures of your watts link mounted?
 

Black Cobra '99

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I hadn't seen either of those references before, so I'm going to have to spend more time with them. But MM's point regarding lateral axle motion due to the PHB working in an arc being only noise compared to the lateral tire distortion that's obviously happening at the same time is well taken.

I've been aware of Watts links since before getting my '08 (which I bought new). But I personally feel that a mod like that need only be done when you can recognize that something about the car is causing a limit that the proposed mod can really fix.

As a (now-retired) engineer, it's going to take more than videos from companies with parts to sell and testimonials (however well-intended, I'm not flaming anybody with that). Basically I need to recognize the need myself, and work out for myself whether any particular mod is likely to help. By way of example, I didn't even swap the truly soft OE suspension springs out on my '08 until the amount of nose dive under braking started feeling like too much.

Most of my track time has been on OE springs and the OE PHB (though I did do a cheapie mod to stiffen the PHB's bushings). A little more sta-bar (Strano's bars), better dampers (yellows), and out-of-Ford-spec alignment settings are basically all I've done to the suspension. Well, there's the 285/35-18 MPSS tires on 18x11 Forgestars . . .

Anyway, with my car in the above condition I have Aim Solo datalogging showing peak lateral g's of 1.3 and better, and over 1.2 at nearly 100 mph. The track is fairly flat and my car only rolls about 2°/g, so I doubt there's much error involved.

My whole point being that at an indicated 1.3g, it's not the PHB that's limiting you.

View attachment 1662910
View attachment 1662911

I was just driving the track in those pics, no nail-biter moments at all.


Norm

Being an engineer myself, I agree with you regarding the time to upgrade components. We have terrible roads where I live and the boaty feeling was too much and frankly terrifying at times. Thats why I went to watts even though I wasn't tracking my car at the time. To be honest, stiffer springs made the biggest difference, but on the street the watts definitely improved the rear response to bumps during cornering.

In the interest of science and clarity, what tires are you running, and are those numbers sustained g? If you know any, what other cars are getting around the same corners?
 
Last edited:

Robert M

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Do you have pictures of your watts link mounted?

No, it is the Shelby/Fays2 alum. version, but it is still in the box........I have not tackled that project yet......too many other things going......

Remember this picture of alloy Shelby Fays2's.....which were only available through Shelby Perf. Parts?

64804-1.jpg

0033-1.jpg


R
 
Last edited:

Norm Peterson

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Being an engineer myself, I agree with you regarding the time to upgrade components. We have terrible roads where I live and the boaty feeling was too much and frankly terrifying at times. Thats why I went to watts even though I wasn't tracking my car at the time. To be honest, stiffer springs made the biggest difference, but on the street the watts defiantly improved the rear response to bumps during cornering.

In the interest of science and clarity, what tires are you running, and are those numbers sustained g? If you know any, what other cars are getting around the same corners?
They're peak g's. You could probably take average g's to be about 10% lower. My Aim Solo has measured as high as 1.36g when the tires were fresher.

Tires were (are) MPSS 285/35-18 on Forgestar 18x11 wheels (all four corners).

T'bolt 15-S2.jpg


I scanned through a couple of Camaro videos (6th gen SS 1LE cars), and I was running close to the cornering g's posted in their videos. These are cars running lap times 7 or 8 seconds faster than my 1:38.x, and hitting over 15 mph higher speeds down the main straight.


Norm
 
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Radron2626

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I am in the middle of converting my car over to more road racing as well. I will be going with the Cortex Watts link as well. Right now I have 305/35/18 Toyo R888R on 18x11s, on all Four corners, and Cortex JRi adjustable coilovers. If all the watts link does is settle rear end down through the corner with bumps, and keeps the axle centered, since I have hardly any room in the rear fender wells, I will be happy.
 
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SCGallo2

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.......and I still ask, what about the guys who drag race, or even the street guys who drive their car "with spirit" on the street?


I have drag raced, road coursed, and drive “spiritedly” on a weekly basis. In an effort to quantify axle movement on my car, I measured my adjustable panhard bar setting at 42” long. Since I am engaging the rear bump stops at 1/2” of rear suspension squat and my car does not nosedive under hard braking, I would generously estimate that my rear suspension travel is +/- 1.0” in either direction. I projected those measurements onto my garage floor to depict axle movement with the rear suspension conditions during hard acceleration and hard braking. Length measurements are to scale, but the arch radius is just for illustration and not to scale. Accounting for the thickness of the lead pencil, there is only 1/16” of axle movement from static ride height to either full suspension compression or extension. There may be additional panhard bar poly bushing deflection allowing a little more shift, but I think it is still negligible.

With the new power delivery from my Whipple Gen 4, I needed more rear grip, so I traded some handling performance going from MPSSs to Nittos for straight line traction and safety.

Suspension arch.jpg


Nitto tires.jpg


New tires.jpg
 

Radron2626

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I have drag raced, road coursed, and drive “spiritedly” on a weekly basis. In an effort to quantify axle movement on my car, I measured my adjustable panhard bar setting at 42” long. Since I am engaging the rear bump stops at 1/2” of rear suspension squat and my car does not nosedive under hard braking, I would generously estimate that my rear suspension travel is +/- 1.0” in either direction. I projected those measurements onto my garage floor to depict axle movement with the rear suspension conditions during hard acceleration and hard braking. Length measurements are to scale, but the arch radius is just for illustration and not to scale. Accounting for the thickness of the lead pencil, there is only 1/16” of axle movement from static ride height to either full suspension compression or extension. There may be additional panhard bar poly bushing deflection allowing a little more shift, but I think it is still negligible.

With the new power delivery from my Whipple Gen 4, I needed more rear grip, so I traded some handling performance going from MPSSs to Nittos for straight line traction and safety.

View attachment 1663028

View attachment 1663029

View attachment 1663030

Beautiful looking car! Nice write up on the axle movement. I agree, it isn't much, but could be enough to rub in some set ups. The live axle/pan hard bar is definitely not the limiting factor in these cars when cornering hard. I have a Gen 2 Whipple 2.9 in mine for power as well.
 

Robert M

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I have drag raced, road coursed, and drive “spiritedly” on a weekly basis. In an effort to quantify axle movement on my car, I measured my adjustable panhard bar setting at 42” long. Since I am engaging the rear bump stops at 1/2” of rear suspension squat and my car does not nosedive under hard braking, I would generously estimate that my rear suspension travel is +/- 1.0” in either direction. I projected those measurements onto my garage floor to depict axle movement with the rear suspension conditions during hard acceleration and hard braking. Length measurements are to scale, but the arch radius is just for illustration and not to scale. Accounting for the thickness of the lead pencil, there is only 1/16” of axle movement from static ride height to either full suspension compression or extension. There may be additional panhard bar poly bushing deflection allowing a little more shift, but I think it is still negligible.

With the new power delivery from my Whipple Gen 4, I needed more rear grip, so I traded some handling performance going from MPSSs to Nittos for straight line traction and safety.

View attachment 1663028

View attachment 1663029

View attachment 1663030

I agree, 1/16" is nothing in the scheme of things.

R
 

Steve@TF

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Anyone running a panhard bar on their gt500?


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