Another crank bolt question

With all the crank/balancer threads lately I thought it would be a good idea to see what crank bolt I had knowing the previous owner had an 08 stock balancer put on. I found it has an ARP bolt but looks like they used a small washer on top of a larger washer.


Maybe I am seeing this wrong because of all the RTV smeared everywhere. Wanted to know what you guys thought of this and if I should just replace it with the Kinitic crank saver bolt?

Ford recommends a dab of sealant at the end of the balancer, where the key way slot is located, but that sort of looks excessive. Not to mention they didn't clean the washer all that well. ARP makes a thicker washer and the bolt is reusable. For peace of mind, I'd get the washer, remove the bolt and check it for the correct length and reinstall it knowing what torque spec you used. Or you could just use the stud saver. You could also just torque the current set-up to 100 lb ft and call it a day.

Are the ARP updated bolts, necessary or even needed, on a mostly stock set up?

Should ALL GT500s, swap over, regardless of power levels or balancer type (stock vs. aftermarket)?

Followed these cars for 10 years now, owned two of them, never heard of this problem until a few weeks ago. No vendor or shop, or on thousands of YouTube videos has this even been mentioned ?

Thanks!

I'm sure it's adequate for a stock engine and the few I know about appear to be fastener related. If you're going to use the factory hardware, do as Ford says and replace the bolt with a new one. ARP, and really most standard bolts for that matter, are not torque to yield, and can be reused if not over torqued. If not ARP, it might by wise to use something at least grade 10.9 or better. Make sure that bolt is as long as the factory bolt. If it's longer, make sure it's not bottoming on the bottom of the hole, which would impact necessary clamping force on the bolt. It may interest you to know ARP does not have a specific "balancer bolt" listed for the GT500. Vendors are selling universal ARP bolts for this application. If you have an aftermarket balancer, follow the manufacturer's recommendations on inspection and rebuilding. A balancer that's not doing its job can make it hard for a bolt to keep its tension if harmonics get excessive.

Larger diameter balancers, much high boost pressures and bigger blowers with heavier rotors were never a design concern for Ford. Drag slicks and 2 steps only exacerbate the issue. As long as the fastener they used held together through the warranty period, it met their criteria. TTY bolts are used because they're light weight, not because they're better. Auto manufacturers are concerned with lighter materials to help meet CAFE fuel standards. That's where that comes from. Should you do it or not, depends on how much confidence you have in a $10 bolt preventing damage to a $20k engine, depending on use. Did you, or a previous owner/shop correctly tighten the TTY bolt in accordance with Ford's instruction? TTY bolts are intended to stretch on installation and reusing them is asking for a possible failure. If installed correctly, I'm sure it's fine for most street use.

ShelbyGT5HUN said:

Are the ARP updated bolts, necessary or even needed, on a mostly stock set up? Should ALL GT500s, swap over, regardless of power levels or balancer type (stock vs. aftermarket)?

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In my opinion, if you have an OEM installed balancer (2008+) from the assembly line, have a < 3.0L blower and are not spinning it to the moon, and not using a two-step device and no-lift shifting, you should leave it alone. It appears that most aftermarket balancer/crank snout failures/random engine mis-fires that we see in the forums have suspect installation or hardware issues. I considered installing an ATI stock diameter balancer on my car during my most recent mods to have a more quality balancer over stock, but decided that the risk was not worth it in my application. If I ever build my engine, I will have my shop (JDM Engineering) install a new balancer during assembly using their race proven methods and hardware.

lfgt said:

Wanted to know what you guys thought of this and if I should just replace it with the Kinitic crank saver bolt?

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That installation would bother me. At a minimum, I would check the torque on the bolt, but would probably replace the hardware so I knew exactly what I had.

ShelbyGT5HUN said:

Are the ARP updated bolts, necessary or even needed, on a mostly stock set up?

Should ALL GT500s, swap over, regardless of power levels or balancer type (stock vs. aftermarket)?

Followed these cars for 10 years now, owned two of them, never heard of this problem until a few weeks ago. No vendor or shop, or on thousands of YouTube videos has this even been mentioned ?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Knowing what I know now. I would most certainly do the crank saver stud. There was a rash of them breaking even stock back when they were released or pre production I read.
Take it from me, last thing you want to do is have something stupid like a single bolt be the cause of a +$15k failure.

Stock blower and factory assembly line built engine here, with only a 2.59 upper. 17k miles, 2010.

Ended up just ordering the crank saver stud for peace of mind.

Just curious... what is the bolt/balancer set up on the 2013/14 engines?

Thanks

ShelbyGT5HUN said:

Just curious... what is the bolt/balancer set up on the 2013/14 engines?

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Same as 08-12.

ShelbyGT5HUN said:

Just curious... what is the bolt/balancer set up on the 2013/14 engines?

Thanks

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.............or another comparo question.......What is the boost level difference between the 2007-2012 and the 2013/14?..............since higher boost levels (much higher as Cat mentioned) seem to be a factor?

R

Well you had a 2 liter M series blower (non-TVS) on the 07-12 with a 3" pulley and a 2.3 liter TVS on the 13-14 with a 2.7" pulley. So that's a pretty big percentage increase for the 5.8. Assuming no losses, the 07-12 combo was capable of 1,003 cfm at 6,000 rpm, the other 1,282. It's all about blower displacement and changes in the upper pulley. But the TVS is a more efficient blower than the M series.

Stock boost on 2007-2012 was 9psi, when Frpp 2.3 TVS was added on stock 3.0 pulley it was 12psi.

2013/2014 gt500 stock boost was 14-15psi with stock 2.7 pulley.

Pretty big difference in factory boost. Also the 13/14 2.3 blowers were much more efficient and more cfm flow.

me32 said:

2013/2014 gt500 stock boost was 14-15psi with stock 2.7 pulley.

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I think it's 12 psi.

On edit: Just found this. Eaton says 14 psi.

There's a whole lot of dyno sheets with stock uppers showing 12-13 psi in the 13-14 GT500 forum sticky.

Catmonkey said:

I think it's 12 psi.

On edit: Just found this. Eaton says 14 psi.

There's a whole lot of dyno sheets with stock uppers showing 12-13 psi in the 13-14 GT500 forum sticky.

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Depends on air density and elevation. But peak is 15psi in optimal conditions.

Thats why when people go to a 2.4 pulley they range from 17-18psi which is too much on the 91 octane.

I'm assuming a tune might get you a lb or two over stock too.

Robert M said:

.............or another comparo question.......What is the boost level difference between the 2007-2012 and the 2013/14?..............since higher boost levels (much higher as Cat mentioned) seem to be a factor?

R

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Not entirely Robert. Again i read Ford was having problems with them snapping on early model cars or pre production cars.

PM-Performance said:

Not entirely Robert. Again i read Ford was having problems with them snapping on early model cars or pre production cars.

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With the much heavier 2007 balancer?.....Maybe part or most of the reason for the change in 2008?

Wayyyy back in the early days, when the 2007 GT500 specs. were being announced, I remember Ford/SVT mentioning that they used a crank balancer similar to the one installed 2005/06 5.4DOHC Ford GT.

R

Robert M said:

With the much heavier 2007 balancer?.....Maybe part or most of the reason for the change in 2008?

Wayyyy back in the early days, when the 2007 GT500 specs. were being announced, I remember Ford/SVT mentioning that they used a crank balancer similar to the one installed 2005/06 5.4DOHC Ford GT.

R

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I do not think the balancer is as much of the issue here. They have broken on stock balancers, ati balancers, stock bolts, ARP bolts, single keyed, double keyed, low boost, high boost, part throttle, full throttle. lol. Pretty much every scenario you can think of has equated into a full loss situation.

After seeing that video on how the cranks are drilled to 14MM and it having a 12MM bolt and seeing how much movement they have, that was a HUGE FAIL by FORD imho! I hear these are kind of peculiar tq sequence too to get them to seat. No doubt mine was seated as its been on for over 2 yrs. It must have just backed out a little. In all my years of working on cars, I have never seen a crank bolt work itself out until now.