Intercooler pumps - Need help

RioRed4v · Jul 7, 2020

Need some help with heat exchanger pumps. Bought the car and knew it had an ice tank plumbed in the system. Discovered later the factory pump was deleted. Was told I should put it (or an upgrade) back in the system along with upgrading the heat exchanger.

Finished installing my VMP heat exchanger and before hooking up my new Davies Craig pump, I burped the system using the pump in the ice tank. Once I didn't hear anymore bubbles I hooked up the DC pump. As soon as hooked it up it sounded like the flow slowed down in the ice tank. Went up front and confirmed DC pump is working. Tried loosing lines to bleed any extra air, no luck.

Any ideas why the flow seems slower when using the DC pump in addition to the ice tank pump vs just the ice tank pump? Was told this will increase my flow but so far it's just hindering it.

PM-Performance · Jul 7, 2020

I could be wrong, but I don’t think you need or even want 2 pumps or a second tank up front.
I would just run the trunk tank and big pump in the rear and just run it through the heat exchanger.
I’m sure they are battling eachother in some fashion in flow with the way it’s plumbed

Catmonkey · Jul 7, 2020

Do you know what sort of pump you have in the back? Not all pumps are up to moving pressure and fall on their face. Also verify your pumps are moving fluid in the same direction. What size hoses are you plumbing and how is the flow arranged?

RioRed4v · Jul 7, 2020

PM-Performance said:
I could be wrong, but I don’t think you need or even want 2 pumps or a second tank up front.
I would just run the trunk tank and big pump in the rear and just run it through the heat exchanger.
I’m sure they are battling eachother in some fashion in flow with the way it’s plumbed

Front tank is removed but I agree that it seems like they are probably battling each other. I'm pretty close to just deleting the front pump again and run it how it was before.

Catmonkey said:
Do you know what sort of pump you have in the back? Not all pumps are up to moving pressure and fall on their face. Also verify your pumps are moving fluid in the same direction. What size hoses are you plumbing and how is the flow arranged?

Previous owner wasn't very clear about mods but I'm thinking it's a Rule pump since it's inside the tank. It's 3/4" lines throughout and I believe both pumps are flowing the same (factory) direction. I've seen the Rule falls down to around 6gpm which seemed to match well to the Davies Craig pump but it's starting to seem like the DC pump is the restriction when both are running. As far as configuration, it goes from the IC, to the DC pump, to the HE, to the tank, then the Rule pump and then back up to the IC.

biminiLX · Jul 7, 2020

Delete Rule pump.
Those suck in an OEM system with less than 1” lines and more importantly the small intercooler brick fittings.
I would assume the DC pump alone would be better alone.
I run 2 stock ‘13-14 pumps, one on each side of the system with great results.
-J

RioRed4v · Jul 7, 2020

biminiLX said:
Delete Rule pump.
Those suck in an OEM system with less than 1” lines and more importantly the small intercooler brick fittings.
I would assume the DC pump alone would be better alone.
I run 2 stock ‘13-14 pumps, one on each side of the system with great results.
-J

Interesting. You're the first person I've come across to run dual pumps, good to hear it can be done. Do you think it'd be worth replacing the Rule with a matching DC pump, or maybe a 13/14?

Also, dumb question but any idea how to remove the Rule? I looked inside the tank today and couldn't really figure out.

biminiLX · Jul 8, 2020

Unfortunately I don’t have experience on removing the Rule pump, and I think they’re built around the pump sometimes, but should be able to be removed/serviced.
I’d also recommend and ice guard.
On the 2 pumps, I wanted to keep mine factory up front but increase the flow. I have thought of a boost a pump under WOT, but started thinking of it and decided to have 2 pumps (one between tank and brick, the other from HE to tank, so both sides of system, with 1” lines). I’ll be increasing the intercooler brick fittings to 1” to complete the system.
Personally I’d try to figure out a way to measure your current flow both ways. I’d probably run just the CD pump and test that way first. Then consider a BAP or a second pump.
The best single pump is the Stewart EWP (sorry blanking on exact name but Lingenfelter had a modified version) that is designed for high flow under higher pressure (resistance) that we encounter in OEM systems with smaller lines/fittings.
If you have all aftermarket stuff with minimum 1” lines and fittings, that’s the only place for the Rule bilge pumps.
-J

Catmonkey · Jul 8, 2020

I'd agree with Jay. Better pump out back and 1" lines back to front. I think the Stewart EMP would fill the bill for the rear pump. Here are some pumps Lingenfelter Performance tested. Note the Rule pump. Pressure is the result of moving coolant, and in your case a lot of it, into undersized intercooler components. The more back pressure the less effective most of these pumps are at moving fluid. The factory system has more than a few necked down sections to as small as 1/2". Unless you intend to use that ice tank on a routine basis, I'd by-pass it and use it when you need it.

PM-Performance · Jul 8, 2020

the EMP is THE PUMP to run! If your pockets are not that deep and don't need that rediculous flow, there are other options. DC makes an external pump that generates alot of flow for those tanks as well. I cannot remember the number but PNR uses them as the small step down to the EMP for the guys without as much coin.

Those Rhules are riddled with problems. I dont even think the boat guys like them for bilge pumps. lol. I think you twist to remove from inside the tank to pull the pump out.

RioRed4v · Jul 8, 2020

biminiLX said:
Unfortunately I don’t have experience on removing the Rule pump, and I think they’re built around the pump sometimes, but should be able to be removed/serviced.
I’d also recommend and ice guard.
On the 2 pumps, I wanted to keep mine factory up front but increase the flow. I have thought of a boost a pump under WOT, but started thinking of it and decided to have 2 pumps (one between tank and brick, the other from HE to tank, so both sides of system, with 1” lines). I’ll be increasing the intercooler brick fittings to 1” to complete the system.
Personally I’d try to figure out a way to measure your current flow both ways. I’d probably run just the CD pump and test that way first. Then consider a BAP or a second pump.
The best single pump is the Stewart EWP (sorry blanking on exact name but Lingenfelter had a modified version) that is designed for high flow under higher pressure (resistance) that we encounter in OEM systems with smaller lines/fittings.
If you have all aftermarket stuff with minimum 1” lines and fittings, that’s the only place for the Rule bilge pumps.
-J

I'll try removing the Rule from the system today to see if it makes a difference and if so, just run with the DC for now. If you had to do it again would you go with something like the Stewart or still go with your double pumps?

Catmonkey said:
I'd agree with Jay. Better pump out back and 1" lines back to front. I think the Stewart EMP would fill the bill for the rear pump. Here are some pumps Lingenfelter Performance tested. Note the Rule pump. Pressure is the result of moving coolant, and in your case a lot of it, into undersized intercooler components. The more back pressure the less effective most of these pumps are at moving fluid. The factory system has more than a few necked down sections to as small as 1/2". Unless you intend to use that ice tank on a routine basis, I'd by-pass it and use it when you need it.

View attachment 1650569

Thanks for the pic, that's helpful. The Stewart pump is impressive. With the tank, yea, I'd rarely use it. Some of the previous feedback was to just keep it as-is due to the increased volume but try to increase the flow as much as possible given the line size and restrictions which is how I ended up where I am lol. I guess bypassing it is another option though too since I might only be using it once a year or something.

PM-Performance said:
the EMP is THE PUMP to run! If your pockets are not that deep and don't need that rediculous flow, there are other options. DC makes an external pump that generates alot of flow for those tanks as well. I cannot remember the number but PNR uses them as the small step down to the EMP for the guys without as much coin.

Those Rhules are riddled with problems. I dont even think the boat guys like them for bilge pumps. lol. I think you twist to remove from inside the tank to pull the pump out.

I keep hearing about how bad the Rules are too, even more so now that I'm digging in to this a bit more. Makes me want to get rid of it for sure.

Definitely seems like the Stewart pump is the way to go but I'll have to see if I can find the Davies Craig option if its that close in comparison.

RioRed4v · Jul 8, 2020

Found some more interesting flow data on the Department of Boost site.

GT500 Stock Intercooler/Manifold & .75" Hose:

DOB POWA Pump 0.75 OEM GT500 10
Stewart E2512A 0.75 OEM GT500 9.5
13' GT500 Pump 0.75 OEM GT500 8.5
Whipple High Flow (Bosch) 0.75 OEM GT500 8.25
Bosch/ Bosch outlet to inlet 0.75 OEM GT500 8
Bosch/Bosch 180deg 0.75 OEM GT500 7.5
Davies Craig EWP150 0.75 OEM GT500 6
55gpm 0.75 OEM GT500 5.25
Rule 2000 0.75 OEM GT500 5
Bosch 0.75 OEM GT500 5
20gpm 0.75 OEM GT500 4.25

RioRed4v · Jul 8, 2020

Removed the Rule pump to see how the DC would do on it's own and it seems like there might be some air in the system. I pulled the line off (on accident) from the exit side of the HE and there was no coolant being pushed out. Kind of glad there was none since it would have made a huge mess.

RioRed4v · Jul 8, 2020

Threw in the towel on the DC pump. No matter what I tried I couldn't get it to prime or stay primed. Part of me thinks the amount of hose/restrictions might have been too much for it. Thinking I might just go the route of replacing the Rule with something larger like the Davies Craig EWP150 or the Stewart pump.

jenkins_1120 · Jul 9, 2020

The rule pumps are easy to remove. A couple plastic clips on the red screen and you can wiggle it loose

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RioRed4v · Jul 9, 2020

jenkins_1120 said:
The rule pumps are easy to remove. A couple plastic clips on the red screen and you can wiggle it loose

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks. Exactly what it was. Push type clip on each side. Biggest pain was the hose to connect it inside the tank.

Catmonkey · Jul 9, 2020

RioRed4v said:
Threw in the towel on the DC pump. No matter what I tried I couldn't get it to prime or stay primed. Part of me thinks the amount of hose/restrictions might have been too much for it. Thinking I might just go the route of replacing the Rule with something larger like the Davies Craig EWP150 or the Stewart pump.

If it's in the stock location, remove the inlet hose just enough to let any air out of the pump impeller area. Air will get trapped in the highest point and the impeller has a hard time moving an air bubble.

RioRed4v · Jul 9, 2020

Catmonkey said:
If it's in the stock location, remove the inlet hose just enough to let any air out of the pump impeller area. Air will get trapped in the highest point and the impeller has a hard time moving an air bubble.

It's mounted to the frame rail off to the side, but I tried removing it to raise it, lower it, add water to the lines, suck on it, blew on it, cracked lines open to bleed air.. nothing. I hooked the Rule back up to flow coolant through the lines, then switched back to the DC pump... nothing. Tried turning both pumps on (thinking that when I switched from the Rule to the DC, the fluid would backflow a bit and cause air to get trapped) and then cut power to the Rule, that didn't work either. Everytime I removed the lines from the DC pump the coolant was super aerated inside of it so it was getting fluid, but it just wouldnt push it.

For those that have ran the Stewart pump, is it possible to run on a stock alternator? That will likely be the deciding factor for me between the Stewart or the EWP150.

Catmonkey · Jul 9, 2020

I think it's something like 20 amps, so there shouldn't be an alternator issue, but you really need to wire in a relay for the power wire. Use your power wire for your intercooler pump as the trigger circuit. I think the stock pump is like 6 amps, so I don't know if that circuit is up to running the larger pump.

biminiLX · Jul 10, 2020

Catmonkey said:
I think it's something like 20 amps, so there shouldn't be an alternator issue, but you really need to wire in a relay for the power wire. Use your power wire for your intercooler pump as the trigger circuit. I think the stock pump is like 6 amps, so I don't know if that circuit is up to running the larger pump.

Glad you found that Lingenfelter graph, it’s very telling.
My friend runs a Stewart pump on a stock ‘11 Coyote alternator wired independently.
Best option but $$$.
-J

Stangra · Jul 10, 2020

RioRed4v said:
It's mounted to the frame rail off to the side, but I tried removing it to raise it, lower it, add water to the lines, suck on it, blew on it, cracked lines open to bleed air.. nothing. I hooked the Rule back up to flow coolant through the lines, then switched back to the DC pump... nothing. Tried turning both pumps on (thinking that when I switched from the Rule to the DC, the fluid would backflow a bit and cause air to get trapped) and then cut power to the Rule, that didn't work either. Everytime I removed the lines from the DC pump the coolant was super aerated inside of it so it was getting fluid, but it just wouldnt push it.

A simple & foolproof process to purge air/prime system/leakcheck

Intercooler pumps - Need help

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