Stock suspension, alignment won't dial into spec...

mike_b_svt

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'03 Cobra 'vert. Stock suspension and wheels. Getting uneven tire wear, so I took it to the Dealer (yeah, I know) for alignment. They adjusted it as close as they could, but weren't able to get it into spec (pic of results attached). I was told that I need a "camber kit" to allow them to dial it in completely (to the tune of $680 and extra holes in my shock towers).

Now, this sounds like BS to me. If it won't dial in with a stock setup then something is wrong / bent / worn out. I even asked them to check the suspension components and they said everything is good.

I thought I would run this by the folks that live and breath these cars and know stuff about alignment and things. I'd rather not install a camber plate if I don't have to.

So, do I take my car to someone else and get a second opinion / another alignment done?
Or just order a kit and install it myself, then take it back for an alignment?
Is there any validity to their claim that it just won't dial in on a stock setup?

Thanks in advance!

Mike B.

aT4gkyr.jpg
 

ashleyroachclip

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what did the alignment specs look like before they aligned it ? No holes need to be drilled to install caster /camber plates.
It is odd to me , the diagonal discrepancy.
 

01yellercobra

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what did the alignment specs look like before they aligned it ? No holes need to be drilled to install caster /camber plates.
It is odd to me , the diagonal discrepancy.
You need to drill holes to install the MM 4 bolt plates.

OP, when you say stock are you including the springs? I would definitely get a second opinion.
 

mike_b_svt

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what did the alignment specs look like before they aligned it ?

Not sure, but below is a pic from last year when I had it aligned previously (which does include a before & after). At the time I didn't catch that the results were still out of spec ~ they said it was all good, and I didn't question it... until the tires kept on wearing funny >.<

OP, when you say stock are you including the springs? I would definitely get a second opinion.

Yessir, stock springs, and 17 year old factory suspension parts. Which is why I figured something was probably wearing out.


GeoWm1R.jpg
 

c6zhombre

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There's an entire list of items that could be worn out....making the alignment difficult to dial into spec and then actually holding it as you leave the shop and go along your way. Ball joints, tie rods, control arm bushings, etc need to be inspected. How many miles on the car? If high mileage, probably wouldn't hurt to get new struts/shocks as well. Double check the eccentric bolts in the IRS make sure they're not worn out of spec.

The other complicating issue is the tires themselves....if this camber issue has worn tires to one side and become "staircased" leaning to that side of wear....you will never get the alignment back within spec, even with all the other suspension parts replaced.

You need to diagnose several things in a logical order before this can be fixed with reliability. If this dealer isn't capable of doing that or you've lost faith....time to move on.
 

BlckBox04

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I find it wild that a dealer recommended you buy after market parts to try and fix something
 

mike_b_svt

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I find it wild that a dealer recommended you buy after market parts to try and fix something

Me too! Definitely increased my suspicion!


There's an entire list of items that could be worn out....making the alignment difficult to dial into spec and then actually holding it as you leave the shop and go along your way. Ball joints, tie rods, control arm bushings, etc need to be inspected. How many miles on the car? If high mileage, probably wouldn't hurt to get new struts/shocks as well. Double check the eccentric bolts in the IRS make sure they're not worn out of spec.

Mileage is about 70k. Yeah, I figured with the issues going on that something is probably worn out - not a big deal. So I even specifically asked them to check the front suspension components. They said everything looks good. So if everything is "good", per their inspection, then shouldn't they be able to dial in the alignment?
Thanks for the tip on the eccentric bolts!


The other complicating issue is the tires themselves....if this camber issue has worn tires to one side and become "staircased" leaning to that side of wear....you will never get the alignment back within spec, even with all the other suspension parts replaced.

Just put new tires on it, which is why I took it to be aligned again.

You need to diagnose several things in a logical order before this can be fixed with reliability. If this dealer isn't capable of doing that or you've lost faith....time to move on.

I've definitely lost faith in that dealer. So I guess I will be looking for someone else to check the alignment, and hopefully resolve the issues!

What can I do to diagnose the issue(s) myself, in a logical order? I don't have any alignment equipment, so are there things I can do to look for issues the dealer might have missed?

I do some maintenance and repairs on the car myself, but it's been my daily driver since new, so it always had to be back together for work on Monday.
 

c6zhombre

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Mike, it's not rocket science, but a trained eye is certainly useful. You need to jack up the front end, with the tire still mounted....and try to wiggle that tire back and forth by hand. If it moves excessively, could be a worn wheel bearing right off the bat (I didn't even mention that above).

If it passes that test.....get the front end back up and on jack stands and remove the front tires. Get under there and look at the tie rods and adjuster tubes. Look for obvious damage. Get someone in the driver seat and move the steering wheel left and right. Go to the upper control arms, check the bushings and ball joints for signs of damage. Check the mounting hardware and camber bolts.

Honestly, at a 17 yr old 70k mile daily driver....I'd seriously consider replacing parts. It's time. Especially since you have new tires once again (they're going to ruin quickly with suspension issues). I think that dealer you went to was going to bandaid shim the car for $680 instead of breaking the news to you that you need $2500 in new front suspension parts because the old ones are simply past their service life. Whatever they were going to do wasn't going to last IMO and you'd be disappointed with the performance.

If you don't feel comfortable......research shops in your area and get a second opinion. But these are the things to ask about: Wheel bearing, tie rods, upper control arm bushings, ball joints, mounting hardware/camber bolts. And unfortunately when this is all sorted out.....one more final alignment.
 

olympic

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Your stock springs are 17 years old and have probably settled a bit causing more negative camber. New stock springs will probably bring the camber back into spec but your ride height wll also increase back to factory. Your camber numbers aren't terribly bad but may cause some uneven tire wear as you stated. Did the alignemnt shop try using the "slop" in the strut to knuckle bolts to reduce the negative camber? Basically you just loosen the bolts, stick a prybar in between the strut and knuckle and pry the knuckle outwards, then tighten the bolts.

Another solution is a camber bolt kit. You just replace your upper strut bolt with one of these to easily adjust camber.

AMG_K100024_P04_ANG__ra_p.jpg


And of course the final option is aftermarket caster/camber plates. I know Max Motorsports requires drilling an extra hole in the strut tower but there are plently of other brands that require no drilling. SR Performance Mustang Caster Camber Plates 41293 (94-04 All)
 

hotcobra03

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I'm still rolling on original parts

how many miles are you getting out of a set before wear starts to show

I'm getting 50k average with rotation

I have moved my rear around a few times the front is untouched

420k

I see wear on inner front driver
rears have always been flat and even

I did truck alignments but only a few cars

there is a rivet

this has to be drilled out and will show its been touched

holes may be oblong to allow camber change already done at factory

holes would need to be oblong front to back for caster change

here is were cc plates come in

it makes it easier but not needed

there may be a cam added to lower strut and wedge for more changes

honestly most places just want your money
 

mike_b_svt

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Mike, it's not rocket science, but a trained eye is certainly useful. You need to jack up the front end, with the tire still mounted....and try to wiggle that tire back and forth by hand. If it moves excessively, could be a worn wheel bearing right off the bat (I didn't even mention that above).

If it passes that test.....get the front end back up and on jack stands and remove the front tires. Get under there and look at the tie rods and adjuster tubes. Look for obvious damage. Get someone in the driver seat and move the steering wheel left and right. Go to the upper control arms, check the bushings and ball joints for signs of damage. Check the mounting hardware and camber bolts.

Thanks for the info, that's definitely what I needed to hear. I understand what you're saying, but it's good to read it and have a solid plan.

Honestly, at a 17 yr old 70k mile daily driver....I'd seriously consider replacing parts. It's time. Especially since you have new tires once again (they're going to ruin quickly with suspension issues). I think that dealer you went to was going to bandaid shim the car for $680 instead of breaking the news to you that you need $2500 in new front suspension parts because the old ones are simply past their service life. Whatever they were going to do wasn't going to last IMO and you'd be disappointed with the performance.

If you don't feel comfortable......research shops in your area and get a second opinion. But these are the things to ask about: Wheel bearing, tie rods, upper control arm bushings, ball joints, mounting hardware/camber bolts. And unfortunately when this is all sorted out.....one more final alignment.

I would actually rather they had said "yeah you need damn near everything cuz it's all shot"... I've been expecting to hear it for years now ~ hell, I replaced a bunch of stuff on the wife's explorer last year and she drives it like a little old lady (shh! I didn't say that out loud! >.> ).

I'm still rolling on original parts

how many miles are you getting out of a set before wear starts to show

I'm getting 50k average with rotation

I have moved my rear around a few times the front is untouched

420k

I see wear on inner front driver
rears have always been flat and even

50k on a set of tires?? That's crazy talk. I don't think I've ever got more than 15k out of set (Goodyears, Nittos, whatever ~ went with BFG Comp AS this time). Thankfully my commute is short though ~ I might put 4k on the car a year. ...but I drive very aggressively to make up for it ;-)
Usually the edges on the front are shot, and the centers on the rear, even with regular rotations. It's often just a matter of which one shows cords first, LOL!

Unfortunately, this last set wore only the outer edges on the fronts very quickly, going below tread spec within 3k miles :-/

honestly most places just want your money

That's part of why I came here seeking education. That way I know if they are trying to sell me snake oil.


Your stock springs are 17 years old and have probably settled a bit causing more negative camber. New stock springs will probably bring the camber back into spec but your ride height wll also increase back to factory. Your camber numbers aren't terribly bad but may cause some uneven tire wear as you stated. Did the alignemnt shop try using the "slop" in the strut to knuckle bolts to reduce the negative camber? Basically you just loosen the bolts, stick a prybar in between the strut and knuckle and pry the knuckle outwards, then tighten the bolts.

Ford dealer, so very doubtful that they went through the hoops to do any tricks to bring it into spec :-/

Another solution is a camber bolt kit. You just replace your upper strut bolt with one of these to easily adjust camber.

And of course the final option is aftermarket caster/camber plates. I know Max Motorsports requires drilling an extra hole in the strut tower but there are plently of other brands that require no drilling. SR Performance Mustang Caster Camber Plates 41293 (94-04 All)

Thanks for the info on the bolt and plates, I greatly appreciate it!

Thanks everyone. I'll start looking into local shops, and break out the jack and stands. I'll try to post an update once it's all sorted out ~ or if I find a smoking gun myself.
 

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