Help with timing engine!

Toast21

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I’ve searched and read a lot on how to properly time everything etc but I just can’t seem to figure this one out.

I took a different set of heads to a machine shop for a valve job, and got them back assembled with cams and secondary chains, etc

Before bolting down the heads I rotated the drivers side sprocket to 12oclock from deck and pass side to ~11. Then made sure crank was at 6 o’clock.

I aligned dots to the chain links etc. I spin the crank with a wrench and half a turn in I feel some resistance. Don’t want to mess anything up so I put it back to where I started.

I did some more searching and saw that all 4 cam keyways should be facing the same clock position, but upon removing cam sprockets found that both pass side cams are at about 6 o’clock and the drivers side are at roughly 7 o’clock.

First time doing anything timing related, unsure how to proceed. Stock cams, stock cams gears, etc

Any insight is much appreciated!


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Toast21

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66fa8082743f5f5e89073a5adefa1e51.jpg
ee712afa0536a303c06452486e376783.jpg


Some pics for reference. Kinda pissed at this point since I already torqued down the heads. Hopefully I don’t have to remove them

Edit: forgot to remove pass side cam bolt in the pic, the intake and exhaust cam keyway are facing the same direction.

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hotcobra03

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If you turned engine after it was set to recheck it will take many turns to get all dots lined up again

It was just as simple as it looked

Drivers side was around 1 and passenger around 11

Copper links on dots than pull pins

Hopefully shop put the cams in proper spots

There is a safe spot to turn cams without with no damage


Home

In here is our factory service manual
Very detailed on this.
 

jrgoffin

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^^ The service manual has been downloadable from my site for years - easy to find and spells out the procedure.

Also, the FR timing kit instructions - also easy to find - have the process broken down. The FR instructions are also linked in my build thread which has a ton of pictures showing the process: Aluminator Gibtec Build
 

Four Door SVT

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Remove all the rockers, return the cams to the proper position, install secondary chains and gears, install primary chains and gears, reinstall rockers


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01blckcobra

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I always turn the crank to the 9' keyway position. All pistons will be down in bore. then set your heads. 1 and 11 or so then set the chains. Also use cam holders.

Ran into an issues where the key way in the cam gear was busted from a shop. makes timing a bitch btw. Check the p# on the cams good way to tell.

Also like 64 rotation i believe to get back to start for timing.
 
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Toast21

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Thanks for the help everyone! Read everything in the links provided and rechecked everything about 10x and thought I was going crazy. Still was getting that resistance I was talking about, I’m pretty sure I was having ptv issues.

It wasn’t until I started checking part#s on everything did I find that the RH intake and exhaust cam were installed backwards! Had faith in the machine shop and never thought to double check that.

The exhaust cam is on the intake side and vise versa. The LH cams seem to be on correctly.

Had to take a little break since this was really stressing me out lol I’ll swap them in a bit and check back, hopefully all goes smooth now.


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hotcobra03

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I go to shop and complain

I had issues with shops work when I had a head fixed and another checked

I got them back with gears on like I gave it But never checked if cam gears were tight.

Weeks later I had passenger side gear bust.

Than after fixing that had drivers side also loosen.

They redid everything for free

And reimbursed for head bolts and gaskets
 

Toast21

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I go to shop and complain

I had issues with shops work when I had a head fixed and another checked

I got them back with gears on like I gave it But never checked if cam gears were tight.

Weeks later I had passenger side gear bust.

Than after fixing that had drivers side also loosen.

They redid everything for free

And reimbursed for head bolts and gaskets


I am going to mention it to them, as I waited way longer than agreed to get them back too.

Do you guys think I could have bent a valve by turning crank by hand and having that ptv issue?

I didn’t turn the crank over too hard & once I felt resistance I turn the crank back, although I did try a few times. Just don’t know how delicate the valves are or how easily they can get damaged.


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Toast21

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This head swap has been a complete nightmare! Didn’t expect it to take this long.

Ok so I began doing a leak down test. This is with the engine cold, on a stand, without timing or valve cover

I only tested 4 cylinders, before i walked out of my garage. Figured either valves were all leaking or I was doing the test wrong. I’ll do all of them tomorrow

Every cylinder I tested I made sure valves were shut and piston @ Tdc. I could hear the air hissing out of exhaust valves and intake valves. Enough to where I could feel the air coming out of the intake and exhaust ports if I placed my hand over them.

I had more than 15-20% loss in all of them, numbers were so high I didn’t even bother writing them down. Looking through the ports I sprayed some oil and could see it bubbling around the valves.

I know some leakage is acceptable but If I can physically feel the air and see the bubbling around the valve does that point to bad valves right away?

I did hear some coming out of the crank case too but I’m pretty confident my short block is good. Car has 13k miles and had no bad symptoms with the original heads.


Again thanks everyone for your help, I’d be lost on my own!


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01blckcobra

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Usually 8% max is what i shoot for. 15% is ok-ish. 20% is high. Could be crappy seat job... and/or Valves need to be lapped or debris stuck in there. or you bent some valves. IMO

My experience has been, usually "JoeSchmoe" machine shops just throws the new seat in there and the valve is without actually checking the mating surfaces. Usually old tooling is used also.

Pull the head and springs. check the seats and valves. If everything checks out, get some lapping compound and lap the valves. Then re-check. AutoZone / ect.. usually carries the compound and tool.
 
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Toast21

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Usually 8% max is what i shoot for. 15% is ok-ish. 20% is high. Could be crappy seat job... and/or Valves need to be lapped or debris stuck in there. or you bent some valves. IMO

My experience has been, usually "JoeSchmoe" machine shops just throws the new seat in there and the valve is without actually checking the mating surfaces. Usually old tooling is used also.

Pull the head and springs. check the seats and valves. If everything checks out, get some lapping compound and lap the valves. Then re-check. AutoZone / ect.. usually carries the compound and tool.

Had I not taking the heads for service on the valves then yes I’d definitely do that myself. I feel like the shop should take care of this one.

Cold Leak down results - 100psi (engine on stand)

4-78. 8-81
3-85. 7-64
2-39. 6-82
1-86. 5-85
-Front engine-

Cold Leak down w/ oil in cylinders - 100psi (engine on stand)

4-91. 8-94
3-92. 7-74
2-39. 6-88
1-96. 5-97
-Front engine-

Spoke with the shop owner, first he said I did the leak down with too much pressure, should do it @ 50-60psi. I told him I did do that too and got same % of leakage. (Which I did)

He also said that they might leak a bit because they were not ran and haven’t had time to seat properly. I don’t know if that’s true or not. All the cylinders that tested lower were noticeably leaking more from either the exhaust/intake ports

But anyways cyl 2 and 7 definitely need to be looked at. He agreed to pickup the whole engine from my garage so he can look at it @ the shop. Now to wait till Saturday...





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01blckcobra

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Atleast they're taking care of it so far...
Another words they just throw the seats and valve in there and hope they wear in correctly. I would rather have the correct matting surfaces from the start.. far as pressure differences. a seal is a seal.. I average around 3-5% fresh and broken in. testing at 100psi which is normal test pressure. But all depends on parts and build and test temp.
 

Toast21

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The nightmare continues....

They dropped the engine off last week and I’m barely getting to it today. They “fixed” the bad valves and delivered the engine to me with the heads on and everything, great.

Leak down test again just to check everything over

80. 66

92. 60

76. 64

85. 85


The cylinders that had more leakage, i can feel the air coming out of the intake and exhaust ports! The cylinders that tested 85+ I couldn’t. This isn’t acceptable is it? Doesn’t seem right.

They told me they had checked all valves and everything was good with their vacuum tester. Don’t want to assemble everything only to have issues when i have it running. Want it done right the first time around


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Toast21

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Really tempted to throw my original heads back on and leaking them down to compare results. The only reason I swapped to these are for the 9 thread spark plug threads

I blew out a spark plug in my original heads


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01blckcobra

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Don't seem right. Probably feel light air in most cases. unless they spend the hours making it perfect. Could try another leak do gauge or even put it together and do a compression test.

Shine a flashlight towards the valve / combustion chamber an look into the ports. Maybe see a speck of light or none. Another way to tell.
 

Four Door SVT

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Remove all the rockers, this way your sure all the valves are supposed to be shut, after that go somewhere else for your engine work


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RichM1983

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Holy hell I hate to read about this nightmare...

Have you had any luck getting it straightened out? I hope so!
 

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