Interesting. I've always wondered. Where did you get that info?
I drastically dropped my fuel temps by over 100F
- Thread starter MalcolmV8
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Interesting. I've always wondered. Where did you get that info?
Back in the fall of 1998 when Ford introduced the 1999 mustangs to the media, Ford issued a press release that among other things, highlighted the then new returnless fuel system for 1999 that lowered fuel temps and ultimately lowered evaporative emissions as well. Therefore, the move to returnless fuel systems by Ford was simply to lower emissions.
Well I know my solution is not the safest, but I can absolutely attest to the benefits of cooling the fuel down to basically ambient temperatures. Its pretty amazing. All my drivability and hot starting issues are gone. I'm also getting much more consistent AFR's. I also had tweak my MAF transfer table a little. In theory, injecting cold oxygenated fuel into my intake is essentially further cooling the charge hitting the cylinder.
When I first installed my whipple, injectors, big pumps and switched to E85, we tried to set my car up returnless, but the AMZ1 computer couldn't keep up, the fuel pump wouldn't respond fast enough and it would go lean. So we just said screw it and installed a return line and pressure regulator. While their is certainly more plumbing, its a far simpler system from a computer stand point. I wouldn't go returnless on an AMZ1 making 700hp. Maybe its possible, but it didn't work for me. If I ever install a stand alone ECU that can properly control fuel pumps I would definitely re-consider returnless. The AMZ1 is a piece of crap, its slow and not reliable for controlling returnless pumps IMO.
When I first installed my whipple, injectors, big pumps and switched to E85, we tried to set my car up returnless, but the AMZ1 computer couldn't keep up, the fuel pump wouldn't respond fast enough and it would go lean. So we just said screw it and installed a return line and pressure regulator. While their is certainly more plumbing, its a far simpler system from a computer stand point. I wouldn't go returnless on an AMZ1 making 700hp. Maybe its possible, but it didn't work for me. If I ever install a stand alone ECU that can properly control fuel pumps I would definitely re-consider returnless. The AMZ1 is a piece of crap, its slow and not reliable for controlling returnless pumps IMO.
I had to run out in the garage and open the passenger to double check.....but yup....it has AMZ1 sticker lol. It's returnless, makes 714 wheel for 9 years now....never one issue. It doesn't have "huge" pumps tho...supercar gt pumps (these are the original first version that flow slightly less than the "improved" and they are also not ethanol rated....they've been sitting in ethanol for almost ten years now, no issue).
Great to hear the improvements on the cooler gas. This thread was originally started with attempts to keep from burning up fuel pumps but has brought more benefits to light.
I have to disagree on the comments about the abilities of returnless fuel pumps though. Our stock ECUs can in fact deal with returnless pumps just fine. The stock fuel pump calibrations and settings within the tune however do not. Most tuners will make the corrections for say GT super car pumps or what ever pumps you're running which gets the car going but to solve the hesitation on shifts with aggressive driving etc. takes a lot more refinement of other parameters that most either don't know or just don't care to take the time to figure out and dial in. What ever the case it causes a lot of people to hate returnless. I myself was one of those about 10 years ago. It can be made to work on our cars though.
Yup there's an example of returnless working correctly. It can indeed be done. Whether its worth the headace to most people or not I suppose is debatable.
BTW - amz1 is nothing to do with hardware/ECU identification per say. From the factory these cars had YDH1, AMZ1, AMZ2 etc. with AMZ2 been the final revision from Ford. All that refers to is a combination of the strategy and calibration (tune) on the ECU. If your car has ever been reflashed, tuned etc. the sticker doesn't mean squat as your tuner likely started with AMZ2 and modified from there on out. Just FYI since we're all here to learn
I gotcha... I'd love to see an MTF file with an example of a working returnless pump config on a 700+ E85 car.
Yup there's an example of returnless working correctly. It can indeed be done. Whether its worth the headace to most people or not I suppose is debatable.
BTW - amz1 is nothing to do with hardware/ECU identification per say. From the factory these cars had YDH1, AMZ1, AMZ2 etc. with AMZ2 been the final revision from Ford. All that refers to is a combination of the strategy and calibration (tune) on the ECU. If your car has ever been reflashed, tuned etc. the sticker doesn't mean squat as your tuner likely started with AMZ2 and modified from there on out. Just FYI since we're all here to learn
Lol. I know AMZ1 is the software strategy....and that obviously changes as soon as you get it tuned. What I wasn't sure of is if there were any ECU hardware changes through the production runs, that was the reason I relayed the info that my passenger door inside had the AMZ1 sticker....I would think even if there were hardware changes, cars with a specific software strategy would most definitely contain identical hardware.
So good to know there were no hardware changes.
Well, I just finished my deadhead setup yesterday and I can already tell a big difference in fuel temps. My fuel pump isn't screaming from getting hot now. Anyone doing this mod, spend the money on a good regulator and thank MalcolmV8 after you are done! It's well worth it!
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I need to take another look at this, with my non dead head system the car stinks of fuel after it’s been running a while. I’m assuming it’s vapor from fuel temps, I cannot find any actual fuel leaks.
I’ve also got a problem with fuel spilling when filling the tank (comes out of the filler), not sure if they could be related
I’ve also got a problem with fuel spilling when filling the tank (comes out of the filler), not sure if they could be related
Do you have PTFE hose?
Regarding the fuel spillage, are all the hoses hooked up to the filler neck like stock?
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Regarding the fuel spillage, are all the hoses hooked up to the filler neck like stock?
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I didn't have the spillage, but my car would wreak of fumes. One issue I found though was when I dropped my tank this week, the fuel pump tank seal was leaking. Aeromotive sends a gasket that is too large and doesn't allow for the pump to properly seal. Either way, when fuel would get hot in my car, it would wreak of fumes and my pump was screaming.
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yes I have PTFE hoses. All the hoses should be hooked up like stock unless something came loose, I just havent had time to get under the car. My other thought about the fuel splash back is maybe that check ball on the end of the filler neck fell off inside the tank
I may have to drop the tank to fish that check ball assembly out and reattach to the filler neck. I may just go ahead and order a new gasket from Lethal and swap it out to be on the safe side.
Sorry for the old thread bump, but I wanted to ask is the dead head less important if you have external pumps that aren't sitting in the tank essentially heating the fuel non stop cooling them down?
I run external walbro's with a glenns sumped tank and I will be honest I have never recorded fuel line temperatures. Just curious if its something more prevalent with in tank pumps or if the fuel circulating past the hot blower/engine is the real culprit to heat the fuel.
Maybe I need to move my regulator from off the cam cover and into the fender, I have a rear cross over line already as I ran my system in series. So I would move the regulator to the fender, run a short line to a y fitting and feed each rail at the front?
Call it done minus a tune adjustment?
I run external walbro's with a glenns sumped tank and I will be honest I have never recorded fuel line temperatures. Just curious if its something more prevalent with in tank pumps or if the fuel circulating past the hot blower/engine is the real culprit to heat the fuel.
Maybe I need to move my regulator from off the cam cover and into the fender, I have a rear cross over line already as I ran my system in series. So I would move the regulator to the fender, run a short line to a y fitting and feed each rail at the front?
Call it done minus a tune adjustment?
Where the pump/pumps are located has nothing to do with it. It's the fuel running through the hot engine bay. I think malcolm even tested running the pumps for a long period and they did not heat the fuel.
I ran a single external magnafuel 750 on my last car and had all kinds of fuel temp issues. I ran an inline fuel cooler that solved it.
When I went return on this car I just started with a dead head set up and it's been good since.
I ran a single external magnafuel 750 on my last car and had all kinds of fuel temp issues. I ran an inline fuel cooler that solved it.
When I went return on this car I just started with a dead head set up and it's been good since.
The blower/engine bay is 100% the source of the heat. I’ve been extremely pleased with my inline fuel cooler. Basically keeps my fuel at ambient outside temperatures. The only problem I still have is when I shut the car off for a short period like 5-10 minutes and then try to start it back up I have to cycle the key 2-3 times to get it to start without stumbling. I wish there was a way to lengthen the prime cycle, but there’s not table for that on the AMZ1.
It’s not a perfect fix and it’s not the safest from an accident/fire stand point but it’s a hell of a lot less work then dead heading.
It’s not a perfect fix and it’s not the safest from an accident/fire stand point but it’s a hell of a lot less work then dead heading.
The easiest and best thing to do if you're having fuel temp issues is just install an inline cooler. Simple and effective and has no side affects. Over time I've found that dead head can be prone to harder hot starts because it can't purge the lines for start up.
Thanks for the info, I will do some research on fuel coolers. How large are some of you running? Like a small transmission cooler size?
id be interested to know what guys are running for fuel coolers as well
Thanks you wouldn't happen to have a BTU rating for that cooler would you? I was looking at something from B&M for a transmission just now.
B&M 70273 B&M 70273 Hi-Tek Cooler, Small Supercooler 15,000 BTU Rating, NPT Fittings, Plate Type, Black
Cool concept and product for the GTR guys, but holy damn that's expensive - ALPHA PERFORMANCE R35 GT-R FUEL COOLER - The Shop Houston
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