Which GT500 Is Best For Me? 07-09 / 10 / 11-12 / 13-14

SVTCobra60

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While the 11-12 (5.4) and 13-14 (5.8) blocks are both aluminum there are slight differences but the biggest reason an aluminum 5.4/5.8 build is so expensive is because of the aluminum block. Aluminum 5.4/5.8 blocks were only put in Ford GT's and GT500's. Ford only made so many of these castings and as far as I know Ford stopped making them, hence why a brand new aluminum block will run you about $4-5.5k . Even if you have a used but in good shape 5.4/5.8 aluminum block chances are you will have to install steel liners when rebuilding it, I think this runs about $3k.

On the other hand Ford has been putting iron 5.4 blocks in trucks and suvs for many many years, used inventory is very good. Also with an iron block you can just re-bore/hone and then start to rebuild. Basically more inventory and easier to work on, so less expensive.

Great point okay, so it's basically the BLOCK that is expensive with the aluminum engined cars not necessarily building them with better parts. I believe I saw MMR quote something around $2k for sleeves. Sounds like it would be smart to look for a car that has a sleeved aluminum block already in it, that way, I'm ahead of the curve and if it needs to be built up further/rebuilt I already have the liners.

If amenities don’t matter, get an 07-09, if you want Recaro seats and other “finer” things well a 2012 or newer is where you need to look

Definitely love the recaros haha. 2012+ or 2011+?

I assume 2011 would have all the similar options to 2012.
 

Catmonkey

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Did you sleeve the 5.8 block your purchased? And I assume you got aftermarket rods/pistons?
No, I would have just had my 5.4 sleeved. I blew a head gasket, so both the heads and the block deck would have had to have been resurfaced. The cost between sleeving and a bare block wasn't that far apart when you consider I would have to ship my block freight for a rebuild. It was easier to start a build before I pulled the engine. Typical turn around time for a rebuild is several weeks, if not longer.

Why would you punch out your 5.4 to a larger bore? A few sentences later you mention boring the block could be a bad idea for big power applications (unless you would bore it out to 3.68 and aim for a conservative power level?)
3.68" is the standard bore diameter of a 5.8. When I say big power, I'm talking north of 1,200 hp and 25 psi of boost. At pump gas levels, and a little beyond, there's no problem. The bore centers are pretty tight on a modular, so the 5.8 bore doesn't leave that much material between cylinders. But Ford is using the same bore on the Voodoo and 2020 GT500. If you're making 2.25 hp per cubic inch, that bore change is worth another 54 hp. With custom pistons, you could choose whatever bore size you desire and end up with something between 330 and 358 cubic inches, the latter using a 3.7" bore.
 
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Catmonkey

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Recaro's made their debut in the 2012 model. That option didn't exist in 2011.
 

Klaus

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What was the reason for punching/boring it out more?

more displacement.

Wouldn't the decreased wall thickness make the block a bit weaker under big power conditions?

I suppose although AL blocks are plenty thick. Sleeving also adds thickness.

am not quite sure what FE stands for

FE is the periodic symbol for Iron

the 5.4 cobra jet block the same as the 11-12 GT500

Ford produced CJs in 2008, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2016. Blocks were 5.4 FE in 2008, 5.4 AL in 2010/2012, 5.0 AL in 2013/2014/2016. The Trinity 5.8 block was never in the CJ.

Cobra Jet - by Ford Performance Parts - The ultimate drag racing production turnkey Mustang car.
 

Catmonkey

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I suppose although AL blocks are plenty thick. Sleeving also adds thickness.
The aluminum block is much thicker in the cylinder bore wall area than the iron blocks, which is one of the weaknesses of the iron block. Sleeving only only displaces aluminum material with steel, it doesn't make the material surrounding the bore thicker. The problem with the plasma liner is it's thin and no way to replicate the process outside of manufacture. It's durable enough to last 100,000 miles, but too thin to reliably hone for new rings on a rebuild. Sleeves will not have that problem, and since you can't have the bore resprayed, it's the only way to rebuild a well used block. The sleeves will have to be bored to size anyway, so choosing a 5.4 or 5.8 bore diameter will not complicate the process.
 

sono

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These cars are all great. For a while everybody liked the 13-14s, but at the end of the day these cars all suffer from traction on the street. So unless you plan on putting in an automatic or 4 wheel drive just buy what your budget allows.
 

SVTCobra60

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No, I would have just had my 5.4 sleeved. I blew a head gasket, so both the heads and the block deck would have had to have been resurfaced. The cost between sleeving and a bare block wasn't that far apart when you consider I would have to ship my block freight for a rebuild. It was easier to start a build before I pulled the engine. Typical turn around time for a rebuild is several weeks, if not longer.


3.68" is the standard bore diameter of a 5.8. When I say big power, I'm talking north of 1,200 hp and 25 psi of boost. At pump gas levels, and a little beyond, there's no problem. The bore centers are pretty tight on a modular, so the 5.8 bore doesn't leave that much material between cylinders. But Ford is using the same bore on the Voodoo and 2020 GT500. If you're making 2.25 hp per cubic inch, that bore change is worth another 121 hp. With custom pistons, you could choose whatever bore size you desire and end up with something between 330 and 358 cubic inches, the latter using a 3.7" bore.

Okay I understand, seemed to have made more sense in your situation to go with the fresh 5.8.

Going from a 5.4 to a 5.8 adds that much power all else being equal? Didn't think it would e so much. I didn't understand the last part about the custom pistons and choosing bore size. If you bored out the cylinder to 3.7, wouldn't you need to fit it with the same size piston?

more displacement.



I suppose although AL blocks are plenty thick. Sleeving also adds thickness.



FE is the periodic symbol for Iron



Ford produced CJs in 2008, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2016. Blocks were 5.4 FE in 2008, 5.4 AL in 2010/2012, 5.0 AL in 2013/2014/2016. The Trinity 5.8 block was never in the CJ.

Cobra Jet - by Ford Performance Parts - The ultimate drag racing production turnkey Mustang car.

Thanks for the info.

The aluminum block is much thicker in the cylinder bore wall area than the iron blocks, which is one of the weaknesses of the iron block. Sleeving only only displaces aluminum material with steel, it doesn't make the material surrounding the bore thicker. The problem with the plasma liner is it's thin and no way to replicate the process outside of manufacture. It's durable enough to last 100,000 miles, but too thin to reliably hone for new rings on a rebuild. Sleeves will not have that problem, and since you can't have the bore resprayed, it's the only way to rebuild a well used block. The sleeves will have to be bored to size anyway, so choosing a 5.4 or 5.8 bore diameter will not complicate the process.

Ah okay, so that's an additional benefit of the aluminum block.

Sounds like the best way to go is an aluminum 5.4/5.8 with steel sleeves added in, assuming you want more reliability and ability to rebuild easily.
 

SVTCobra60

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These cars are all great. For a while everybody liked the 13-14s, but at the end of the day these cars all suffer from traction on the street. So unless you plan on putting in an automatic or 4 wheel drive just buy what your budget allows.

Yeah I guess that is the issue with anything only powering the rear wheels haha. Only thing you can do is go dial in the suspension and get very stick very large tires lol. I personally love the 15/16" drag wheel look, so that would help. IDK how people are riding around on 20's with a 30 sidewall trying to hook 700-800+hp
 

Klaus

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Sounds like the best way to go is an aluminum 5.4/5.8 with steel sleeves added in, assuming you want more reliability and ability to rebuild easily.

Do yourself a favor and spend a ton of time doing research and talking with engine builders to get a full understanding of what goes into a build. There are many, many pitfalls and a proper engine build is very expensive.
 

SVTCobra60

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Do yourself a favor and spend a ton of time doing research and talking with engine builders to get a full understanding of what goes into a build. There are many, many pitfalls and a proper engine build is very expensive.

Care to elaborate? I’ve already reached out to MMR but haven’t heard back, will also be speaking to a couple of the other big ones for advice as well.

The reason I’m asking questions is to gain some knowledge and “research.”

Pitfalls to building an engine? I don’t quite follow that part.

I know it can get expensive for sure. I just want to know what to look for / avoid so I can make wise decisions. I will not be having a car built myself but will instead buy a car that has work done already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Klaus

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Sounds like it would be smart to look for a car that has a sleeved aluminum block already in it, that way, I'm ahead of the curve and if it needs to be built up further/rebuilt I already have the liners.

If the block is sleeved it will already be built.
 

Klaus

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Care to elaborate? I’ve already reached out to MMR but haven’t heard back, will also be speaking to a couple of the other big ones for advice as well.

The reason I’m asking questions is to gain some knowledge and “research.”

Pitfalls to building an engine? I don’t quite follow that part.

I know it can get expensive for sure. I just want to know what to look for / avoid so I can make wise decisions. I will not be having a car built myself but will instead buy a car that has work done already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Even if you are buying not building, make sure that you are complete expert beyond asking questions on the forum. Like hours and hours reading everything you can.

Say you buy a car with a built motor
1. without double keyed crank and you decide to throw a mega blower on. Whoops, your crank just snapped.
2. running way too much cam and your drivability and low end SUCKS. But it sounds great woo hoo.
3. that previous owner built for e85 and is running 10:1 compression but you can only run 91. Kaboom, your shit just detonated.

I could go on and on. Not being a dick BTW. Speaking from experience, I was in your shoes a year ago.......
 

Catmonkey

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Okay I understand, seemed to have made more sense in your situation to go with the fresh 5.8.

Going from a 5.4 to a 5.8 adds that much power all else being equal? Didn't think it would e so much. I didn't understand the last part about the custom pistons and choosing bore size. If you bored out the cylinder to 3.7, wouldn't you need to fit it with the same size piston?
You are correct, I posted that before my first cup of coffee. It would be like 54 hp, which I've edited.

3.7" is the largest piston diameter I see anyone offer for a Ford modular, as well as the largest head gasket diameter available. 3.68" is the stock 5.8 bore diameter. 3.7" appears to be the max anyone builds parts to accommodate. Piston clearance is only in the range of .0025"-.004" depending on piston and application.

Sounds like the best way to go is an aluminum 5.4/5.8 with steel sleeves added in, assuming you want more reliability and ability to rebuild easily.
At some point, it's your only option, or throw the block away. If the cylinder is out of round or the plasma surface is too thin, sleeving would be the only way to salvage the block, but it also affords you the ability to go oversized on the next rebuild with just a bore job. With low miles, just a hone may be all you need to install new rings. I would let my machinist tell me what he feels is the safest route to go on hone versus sleeves on a used block. And then I would find someone to sleeve it that has done a number of these.
 
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biminiLX

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more displacement.



I suppose although AL blocks are plenty thick. Sleeving also adds thickness.



FE is the periodic symbol for Iron



Ford produced CJs in 2008, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2016. Blocks were 5.4 FE in 2008, 5.4 AL in 2010/2012, 5.0 AL in 2013/2014/2016. The Trinity 5.8 block was never in the CJ.

Cobra Jet - by Ford Performance Parts - The ultimate drag racing production turnkey Mustang car.
If you really dig the ‘13-14 tail lights, I’d just be patient and find a sweet Trinity car. Best complete performance package and although more upfront it will retain value better.
What are your goals with the car? I’m sorry if I missed it but I just see power numbers. There are 2 power targets to me: 800hp and 1200hp.
After 800hp you need at least rods.
After 1200hp you need sleeves and a crank, basically full build.
If you’re going to save money buying a built car, yes you can save significant money but you better be REALLY sure it’s done right.
I would assume there will be some nice examples of all GT500s from those guys upgrading to the 2020.
I own a 1000rwhp ‘14 with a JDM built non sleeved 5.8 and VMP Gen 3 TVS.
I didn’t built to a power goal but for a 9sec street stick car at full weight as driven on the street.
An 800rwhp ‘13-14 is nice as you don’t need a new blower, fuel system or cams. Not to mention the best brakes, CF shaft, trans gearing and other benefits.
Good luck.
-J
 

SVTCobra60

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Even if you are buying not building, make sure that you are complete expert beyond asking questions on the forum. Like hours and hours reading everything you can.

Say you buy a car with a built motor
1. without double keyed crank and you decide to throw a mega blower on. Whoops, your crank just snapped.
2. running way too much cam and your drivability and low end SUCKS. But it sounds great woo hoo.
3. that previous owner built for e85 and is running 10:1 compression but you can only run 91. Kaboom, your shit just detonated.

I could go on and on. Not being a dick BTW. Speaking from experience, I was in your shoes a year ago.......

Yup that is my plan. I've never gone into anything blindly, I'm someone who researches endlessly. I have to disagree with "beyond asking questions on the forum" I think that it's a great starting point considering I can learn from others mistakes and learn from those who know more than me (for example, people like you who can warn me based on experience.)

But yes I agree, I am continuing to put in my work reading / learning.

In regards to what you listed, I read about #1 yesterday, a double key crank of big blowers (anything over low 3's?). I definitely know to be careful for #2, although I don't know specific lift numbers to aim for / avoid. But I would of course go ahead and research whatever cams were in the car and see what was said about them. #3 for sure I know that would cause quite a bad day. If you'd like to continue listing things feel free to PM me, I wouldn't mind learning from someone who went through it on what to look for / avoid etc

Thanks!
 

SVTCobra60

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You are correct, I posted that before my first cup of coffee. It would be like 54 hp, which I've edited.

3.7" is the largest piston diameter I see anyone offer for a Ford modular, as well as the largest head gasket diameter available. 3.68" is the stock 5.8 bore diameter. 3.7" appears to be the max anyone builds parts to accommodate. Piston clearance is only in the range of .0025"-.004" depending on piston and application.


At some point, it's your only option, or throw the block away. If the cylinder is out of round or the plasma surface is too thin, sleeving would be the only way to salvage the block, but it also affords you the ability to go oversized on the next rebuild with just a bore job. With low miles, just a hone may be all you need to install new rings. I would let my machinist tell me what he feels is the safest route to go on hone versus sleeves on a used block. And then I would find someone to sleeve it that has done a number of these.

Gotcha ok, seems less extreme with that number.

I should have clarified what I was talking about a bit more, I was referencing - "With custom pistons, you could choose whatever bore size you desire and end up with something between 330 and 358 cubic inches, the latter using a 3.7" bore." - By this, did you mean that, assuming you are getting aftermarket pistons and not keeping stock, you can get a displacement of anywhere from 330-358 depending on what bore diameter you choose for your sleeves? And it could range between the two values assuming you fall somewhere between stock 5.4 bore size (? not sure on measurement) and 5.8 bore size (~3.68).

If you really dig the ‘13-14 tail lights, I’d just be patient and find a sweet Trinity car. Best complete performance package and although more upfront it will retain value better.
What are your goals with the car? I’m sorry if I missed it but I just see power numbers. There are 2 power targets to me: 800hp and 1200hp.
After 800hp you need at least rods.
After 1200hp you need sleeves and a crank, basically full build.
If you’re going to save money buying a built car, yes you can save significant money but you better be REALLY sure it’s done right.
I would assume there will be some nice examples of all GT500s from those guys upgrading to the 2020.
I own a 1000rwhp ‘14 with a JDM built non sleeved 5.8 and VMP Gen 3 TVS.
I didn’t built to a power goal but for a 9sec street stick car at full weight as driven on the street.
An 800rwhp ‘13-14 is nice as you don’t need a new blower, fuel system or cams. Not to mention the best brakes, CF shaft, trans gearing and other benefits.
Good luck.
-J

Yeah I definitely like the rear of the 13-14 more than the 10-12 look. It's not a huge change but I think it looks badass.

I THINK I mentioned goals but I'll go over it again. Fun weekend car is it's main purpose. It will NOT see the 1/4 or the 1/8th ever. But I would like to bring it to roll racing type events.

Ok so based on that, sounds like rods will definitely be needed for sure. So in your opinion the sleeves/aftermarket pistons aren't needed until 1200rwhp?

I absolutely will be extremely diligent in ensuring the car was done by a reputable shop/tuner. I'm trying to learn as much as I can before I start looking for a car so that I can look through a build sheet and figure out if anything was skipped/cheaped out on lol.

I'm hoping that there will be an influx of GT500's with the new 2020 coming out, which should also in turn bring prices down a bit.

Alright so you're at 1krwhp without sleeves, I assume that means you still have stock pistons and only got forged rods?

Thanks for the help!
 

SVTCobra60

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If the block is sleeved it will already be built.

Well yes of course, I was more focusing on the point that with the sleeves and not the spray liner, it will be capable of being worked on in the future without big issues like the PTWA blocks have.

Also, if higher quality pistons/rods were needed, I would be able to get them installed without needing to re-sleeve the block/worry about the PTWA liner, correct?
 

Catmonkey

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I should have clarified what I was talking about a bit more, I was referencing - "With custom pistons, you could choose whatever bore size you desire and end up with something between 330 and 358 cubic inches, the latter using a 3.7" bore." - By this, did you mean that, assuming you are getting aftermarket pistons and not keeping stock, you can get a displacement of anywhere from 330-358 depending on what bore diameter you choose for your sleeves? And it could range between the two values assuming you fall somewhere between stock 5.4 bore size (? not sure on measurement) and 5.8 bore size (~3.68).
Right. Stock bore on the 5.4 is 3.55". Stroke is identical on the 5.4 and 5.8.
 

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