Engine upgrade: planning phase with Cams question

In 2019, I plan on doing a strengthening of my 2011 Shortblock to handle boost. I went back and forth on whether I should just buy a big boy blower and be done with it or do what I know is the right way to get there. After getting a chance to meet @Willie personally this past summer, I had a HUGE desire to say F it and go right for a 4.2 KB. His car is nothing less than incredible and his beast of a KB is a shit-eating grin-maker the second it starts up! After cooling my jets a bit, I realized theres no point in having a big blower if I always have a question about the rods holding up in the back of my head.

Fuel will be 100 octane race gas from the pump.

Goals for build:
Reliable 900-1000 rwhp powered (eventually) by a KB 4.7L or a Whipple 4.5L.
Reliable use of WOT Box 2 step launch controller when at the drag strip
7000 rpm redline at the drag strip
Install headers
Install k-member spacer kit (decided I want to use the factory hood)
CAM CHOP

Idea is to build the engine first, then go for the blower.

Per a call to Mahle, the 2011-2012 GT500 pistons can handle 1000 at the wheels. Same pistons in the 2012 CJ are in the 2011-2012 GT500. Same crank too, but the GT500 rods are obviously the famous Ford PM rods. So here's the current idea:

Short Block:
Oliver Speedway 5.4L forged rods with ARP fasteners and rotating assembly balance
King crank and rod bearings
ARP 5.4L Aluminum main stud kit
Check and perform crank bore align hone with stud installation
MMR Billet oil pump gears
ARP head stud kit
Accufab 8mm tensioner arm pivot pins (purchased)
Kinetik Motorsports Crank Saver ARP stud kit (purchased)

Timing:
Cloyes billet cam gear secondary sprockets (purchased)
OEM primary cam gears, chains and tensioners (purchased)
Accufab Cam spacer kit
ARP Cam Bolt kit
MMR billet secondary chain tensioner kit and MMR XHD Secondary chains
MMR billet primary crank gear
MMR Billet tensioner arms

Cams:
????????????????
Part of me wants the get the JDM S/S cam kit. I know there are many who use and love the S/S cams. Problem is that money is an object and at some point, I have to set a limit. Ive been thinking very hard about the Billet Pro Shop Bullet Racing cams. What I really like about them is that they work and are NSR. I know L&M make a set of NSR GT500 cams as well. The 13-14 GT500 (Ford GT) cams are a good improvement over the 07-12, but if Im replacing them I want some cam chop. Any advice?

The car wont be used in competition, and street manners will still matter. I want to chase ETs and make some pulls in Mexico.

Absolutely double key the crank with those big blowers. Also mod the lower intake and consider the Bigun cooler upgrade. Big blowers amplify that restriction.
Otherwise, great list.
I’ll reread it later tomorrow buddy, good luck!
-J

You can make that power on a smaller blower too. I have stage 3 comp came in my car.

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I highly recommend putting the 10mm primary timing chains on that list, a broken OEM 8mm cost me north of 10k in repairs

Does this mean you wont be sleeving your 2011 block? Do you just reuse the factory pistons and rings?

merkyworks said:

Does this mean you wont be sleeving your 2011 block? Do you just reuse the factory pistons and rings?

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Correct. I actually pressed the gentleman from Mahle on this. Stated that the liners were very, very strong and durable as long as you dont try to hone them. Above 1000 they recommended full sleeves.

Due to the precise nature of the liner technology, all the pistons were the same bore size. It was my understanding that this trait is what allowed Ford and Mahle to develop a piston specification that could lower the cost per unit while still being strong enough for use in the Cobra Jet program.

Thabeast said:

I highly recommend putting the 10mm primary timing chains on that list, a broken OEM 8mm cost me north of 10k in repairs

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Do you have a source for these chains? I know the secondary chains are a weak link, but i was under the impression the primary chains were up to snuff for performance applications.

lexustech48 said:

Correct. I actually pressed the gentleman from Mahle on this. Stated that the liners were very, very strong and durable as long as you dont try to hone them. Above 1000 they recommended full sleeves.

Due to the precise nature of the liner technology, all the pistons were the same bore size. It was my understanding that this trait is what allowed Ford and Mahle to develop a piston specification that could lower the cost per unit while still being strong enough for use in the Cobra Jet program.

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Sorry just making sure I understand this correctly cause this goes against what I know about engine rebuilds, admittedly I'm not an expert.

I thought if you take pistons out of the bore before you put the same used piston/ring back in the cylinder you need a light hone to get the cross hatch pattern back so the rings can seat properly. Do you still deck the block head surface and what about any slight bore distortion from using head studs ect.

I'm not saying this can't work, I really want this to work actually! I would do the same thing to my 2012 shortblock cause I want reliable 800-900 whp and I don't want to mess around with sleeving or have to buy a new aluminum block.

@merkyworks Think about it like this, if you take a piston and ring combination out of the the block and immediately reinstall it in the same cylinder, nothing has been changed to the the piston rings or liner. Its the same rings in the same hole with the same wear characteristics. No hone will be required. The car currently runs flawlessly so im not expecting to have any issues when I start to tear it down.

Now, I of course am assuming that the cylinder walls/liner are in great condition. If I pull it apart and find abnormal wear and or "damage" Ill have a decision to make at that point.

Now to really blow your mind, Lexus had a recent customer satisfaction program with 2007-2010 IS250 engines. We were replacing pistons and piston rings for a misfire concern. The factory was ADAMANT that we DO NOT touch the liners. No honing or machining, just install the new rings on piston, alternate end gaps and pop em in. No special break in procedure either, just assemble, start and go. And ya know what? Didnt have a single issue with the pistons and rings with the unhoned liners. Some of these engines had over 100k miles when we did the repair.

@lexustech48 cool deal man, great info!

lexustech48 said:

@merkyworks Think about it like this, if you take a piston and ring combination out of the the block and immediately reinstall it in the same cylinder, nothing has been changed to the the piston rings or liner. Its the same rings in the same hole with the same wear characteristics.

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There is no way you're going to remove a piston, remove the wrist pin clip and transfer the pistons to new rods and put it back with all of the rings back in the same place they sat in the block before disassembly. I'd suggest as soon as the piston rings clear the head surface mark a line down the piston and rings to attempt to get them as close to possible for the reinstall. Good luck with that.

mispost

The JDM SS cams (which I had) are good sticks for power but like any cam to a varied degree, will lower vacuum, particularly the JDM SS. For my tastes specifically as a DD in traffic (and on starts on hills) driving became not so fun anymore when dealing with only 7.5hg of vacuum combined with a beefed up ( ie grabby) clutch to handle the power. In summary, much easier to stall in my described conditions unless I added extra pedal which resulted in some extra clutch smells inching up moderate grade onramps. To add, you'll need to add better valve springs for the JDM SS (required) whereas its only recommended by various manufacturers' for NSR cams. I did this myself and it was a great learning experience but definitely a timely and somewhat nerve racking process (not to drop a valve). I did a write up in the "how to section" that I make a point to describe my techniques using Vaseline or silicone grease in manipulating those pesky collets. Great cams otherwise, but in considering that big blower, NSR cams might be the right choice especially if your first desire is a nice chop (I've heard that the L&M cams have more of a chop). Good luck either way!

Catmonkey said:

There is no way you're going to remove a piston, remove the wrist pin clip and transfer the pistons to new rods and put it back with all of the rings back in the same place they sat in the block before disassembly. I'd suggest as soon as the piston rings clear the head surface mark a line down the piston and rings to attempt to get them as close to possible for the reinstall. Good luck with that.

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I was also under the impression that a light hone is absolutely required on the PTWA liners when rebuilding. Shouldn't be a problem, only .001 or so is removed. If your spray on liners are worn and you can't do the hone then sleeves would be required. I had a conversation with Jim @ JDM on this last year....you might want to give them a call and discuss.

You seem set on the big KB, but you could make 900-1000 on a Gen3. That would leave you with some extra cash saved on the blower and K member spacer kit to go with the JDM cams and upgraded valve springs.

lexustech48 said:

What I really like about them is that they work and are NSR.

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You are planning a big boy build and planning on running NSR? I would rethink this....

I spent a lot of time on this and went with the BPS Bullets. Mod motors do not need a lot of cam and it is really easy to **** up cam selection.

lexustech48 said:

Stated that the liners were very, very strong and durable as long as you dont try to hone them. Above 1000 they recommended full sleeves.

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I would rethink this as well. The spray wears thin very easily. My block only had 12k miles and it was pretty thin. Also you can punch it out if you sleeve it.

RBB said:

You seem set on the big KB, but you could make 900-1000 on a Gen3.

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Shit, he could do it on a gen 2r. Putting a giant blower on would be last on my list personally. If I was digging into the block, I would do it right, new pistons, proper timing gear, head work, sleeving, return fuel system, before I went with a Godzilla blower.

First, it’s all assumption until inspection.
That said, if the liners are in spec (not out of round) and the rings are fine, Mahle themselves also told me on separate occasions you can rerun the Pistons/rings without worry.
I would agree on valvesprings for bigger boost even if they say NSR, I’m running them.
10mm primary chain sounds good but shops running them hard without issue on the stock 8mm. Definitely change the secondaries and the ARP guide bolt.
I think for a budget plan, as long as inspection is fine, your plan is solid.
I’d like to hear more about this primary 8mm failure, and there’s always things you can upgrade, but these motors get expensive quick.
Good luck buddy.
-J

biminiLX said:

First, it’s all assumption until inspection.
That said, if the liners are in spec (not out of round) and the rings are fine, Mahle themselves also told me on separate occasions you can rerun the Pistons/rings without worry.
I would agree on valvesprings for bigger boost even if they say NSR, I’m running them.
10mm primary chain sounds good but shops running them hard without issue on the stock 8mm. Definitely change the secondaries and the ARP guide bolt.
I think for a budget plan, as long as inspection is fine, your plan is solid.
I’d like to hear more about this primary 8mm failure, and there’s always things you can upgrade, but these motors get expensive quick.
Good luck buddy.
-J

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8mm drivers side chain failure at 3500 rpm 2nd gear. On MPSS tires, on the street (in traffic), with 1642 miles on the build. Build had never been raced, never been to the track. I realize sometimes mechanical parts fail but on a $25k+ long block I was less than impressed.

lexustech48 said:

Correct. I actually pressed the gentleman from Mahle on this. Stated that the liners were very, very strong and durable as long as you dont try to hone them. Above 1000 they recommended full sleeves.

Due to the precise nature of the liner technology, all the pistons were the same bore size. It was my understanding that this trait is what allowed Ford and Mahle to develop a piston specification that could lower the cost per unit while still being strong enough for use in the Cobra Jet program.


Do you have a source for these chains? I know the secondary chains are a weak link, but i was under the impression the primary chains were up to snuff for performance applications.

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05-06 Ford GT primary chains are 10mm. You need valve covers off a 96-04 4.6l to clear the bigger cam gears

@RBB @Klaus @biminiLX @Catmonkey @merkyworks @Sielmo @Thabeast

I certainly appreciate all your comments so far. Bimini makes a good point about the initial inspection of the block.

I can pull my engine at work and haul it and the car home for tear down. I have my Taurus as my DD. A block and crank inspection first should be my priority. Find out what I have to work with and then make some decisions. Im going to have to trust the machine shop I choose to give a no bullshit assessment of my bores and crank. If the bores are good then its rods, bearings and ARP mainstud time. If not, Scarlett will be down for a while.

Ill also get some pricing on double keying the crank, sprocket and balancer.

As for the blower, Im not questioning the power ability of the 2650. Im just not a fan of the non standard TB bolt pattern. I know many are running an adapter plate and a KB 168 with great success. I dont care to have to do that, just my preference. I also like the fact that twinscrews run cooler than roots blowers. Another factor for me is that when Whipple Superchargers go on sale for 15% off, a 4.0L is $400 more than a Gen 3. That same 15% off makes a 4.5L Whipple a shade over $5200. I cant imagine a 4.0L or a 4.5L Whipple would disappoint. I like that the Whipple is a bolt on unit with a traditional bypass over the KB kit approach and proprietary bypass. Willie's setup is KILLLER, but I like the simplicity of the Whipple solution.

Cams: I researched some more tonight and it looks like JDM S/S cams are a bargain if you price out the PAC springs separately lol. Bimini and Klaus make good points. Ill pencil in the JDM cam kit for now. Sielmo makes a great point about the drivability of the S/S cams. For what the car is going to be used for though, Ill take the increased pain in the ass drivability for the performance lol.

I know most will poo-poo this because of the "bang for the buck", but when I do cams in my 2008, even if it is only a 2013/14 (Ford GT) cam upgrade, I am going to fully rollerize my valve train and get rid of the "push and slide" at the valve tip end. Jesel says there are some HP gains, maybe? Either way, I know that rolling is much smoother/easier than push/slide. When the followers are removed for the cam swap, that is a Great time for this upgrade.




...............but be prepared for "sticker shock"............and they are sold in sets of 16, so it is X2 for our cars.



R

Robert M said:

I know most will poo-poo this because of the "bang for the buck", but when I do cams in my 2008, even if it is only a 2013/14 (Ford GT) cam upgrade, I am going to fully rollerize my valve train and get rid of the "push and slide" at the valve tip end. Jesel says there are some HP gains, maybe? Either way, I know that rolling is much smoother/easier than push/slide. When the followers are removed for the cam swap, that is a Great time for this upgrade.

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...............but be prepared for "sticker shock"............and they are sold in sets of 16, so it is X2 for our cars.



R

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Very nice, Robert. What’s the price on those rollers? It’s been quite a while since I looked at them, but I do recall being shocked.