Anyone else frustrated with Ford over the next GT500?

paluka21

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You see, I ask a simple question which you could easily answer, but don't.

Hard to be wrong that way huh?

Not trying to play devils advocate here, but what makes you believe DBK or anyone that you've had run-ins with want to answer any of your questions or engage in conversations around said topic? I'm not trying to be rude, but just stating the obvious. When bridges are burned, just let them be.
I think what it comes down to is, admitting when you're wrong even if the information you were providing was something you believed to be correct.

Lesson of the day; admit when you're wrong, lick your wounds, and walk away from the situation.
 

GT Premi

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...

Why do people care so much about weight? ...

More weight means more stress and wear on parts, especially tires and brakes. And if somebody wants to throw racing slicks on an unprepped chassis, stuff starts breaking really fast. Plus, we've heard it a trillion times how guys in Miatas are lapping guys in <insert more powerful yet much heavier car>. It's not [just] because the guy in the Miata is a super driver. Physics is as physics does.
 

Tob

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The percentage increase in weight of the upcoming GT500 over that of GT350 will be low. So I'm not seeing how we will somehow now cross a threshold whereby we suddenly witness "more stress and wear on parts, especially tires and brakes" and where adding "racing slicks on an unprepped chassis, stuff starts breaking really fast." A bit of a stretch. Based on Ford's previous history in this regard I highly doubt that the Factor of Safety for respective parts or systems has been somehow lowered. Be it fasteners, a casting, a forging, or an engineered assembly, strength and durability won't have been compromised. That isn't how this works.
 

AustinSN

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The aluminum knuckles on the GT350 are so stupid thick they would probably work on a slicked F450.

I imagine they will be even beefier on the GT500.
 

GT Premi

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The percentage increase in weight of the upcoming GT500 over that of GT350 will be low. So I'm not seeing how we will somehow now cross a threshold whereby we suddenly witness "more stress and wear on parts, especially tires and brakes" and where adding "racing slicks on an unprepped chassis, stuff starts breaking really fast." ...

If the car remains stationary or only travels in a straight line, sure. Start throwing turns at speed in there, and that extra +/-400 lbs starts to make itself known. Let's say you weigh 200 lbs. Now let's say you're running on some sort of endurance course with lots of directional changes and other stresses on your knees and ankles. Now, let's say we strap an extra 20 lbs to your waist (or back) and put some grippy cleats on your feet. Now run that same course for 20 minutes and tell me your knees and ankles aren't feeling that "low percentage increase in weight." That weight increase isn't a 1:1 affair.

Lateral acceleration turns that 400 lbs up a few notches. If the tires aren't slipping, guess what's taking that extra load; the chassis and suspension. Race cars don't run lighter weight and welded seams for nothing.
 

Voltwings

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The percentage increase in weight of the upcoming GT500 over that of GT350 will be low. So I'm not seeing how we will somehow now cross a threshold whereby we suddenly witness "more stress and wear on parts, especially tires and brakes" and where adding "racing slicks on an unprepped chassis, stuff starts breaking really fast." A bit of a stretch. Based on Ford's previous history in this regard I highly doubt that the Factor of Safety for respective parts or systems has been somehow lowered. Be it fasteners, a casting, a forging, or an engineered assembly, strength and durability won't have been compromised. That isn't how this works.

While you're correct, he's not wrong. Not to mention the fact this car will have what, another 200 - 225 hp on the GT350. Weight and power are hard on consumables, and this thing will have a ton of both.
 

Tob

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The aluminum knuckles on the GT350 are so stupid thick they would probably work on a slicked F450.

I imagine they will be even beefier on the GT500.

I know you have some experience with the GT350 knuckle and can honestly say I have been all over it as well. I have wondered about the exact same thing - whether or not the GT350's A356 aluminum knuckles, as-is, will carry over to the upcoming GT500 or if they had to have been "upgraded." Unless something changed from the one brake rotor/caliper photo that leaked out months ago my initial guess would have been no. The new Brembo caliper looks to have a larger physical footprint than that of the GT350's and the rotor has a commensurate increase as well (no doubt the diameter is larger) - hence the necessity for 20" wheels/tires on the new car.

The wildcard - the GT350 wheel hub. I have every spindle/knuckle/hub iteration from Fox, SN95, S197, and GT350 (a unique assembly compared to all other S550's) and in each case there was a major improvement over the previous version. The loads on the knuckle/hub/caliper/rotor have the potential to be the highest of any of these assemblies or individual components that we have seen to date with the new GT500. There will be an unsprung weight penalty here that begs for CF wheels. As such I hope we see DSSV's (probably as an option if at all as the Mag ride will likely be standard) as they offer up some healthy weight reduction. As soon as I have the opportunity I'll have mine up on a lift to measure up a new caliper stud kit to add to Caliperfexion's offerings as we are like to see slightly larger fasteners as well.

If the car remains stationary or only travels in a straight line, sure. Start throwing turns at speed in there, and that extra +/-400 lbs starts to make itself known.
You didn't seriously think that I was talking about static loads only.


GT Premi said:
Lateral acceleration turns that 400 lbs up a few notches. If the tires aren't slipping, guess what's taking that extra load; the chassis and suspension. Race cars don't run lighter weight and welded seams for nothing.
Weight is relative. How much weight is a GT350 over an Ariel Atom? My God, Mustangs all over should be ripping apart at the seams. And to add additional weight beyond that? Inconceivable!

Everyone here knows why "race cars" perform better and longer with less weight. And nobody said anything about welded seams either. I'm well versed on who welds the seams, which welding process is used where, the spacing of said "stitches" etc, on the S550 chassis (to use the GT4 Mustang for example). That's a whole nother animal and out of context with respect to the vehicle that will come off the assembly line ripe with the necessary improvements to handle any increased dynamic loading it may see over that of the GT350.
 

MarcSpaz

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If the car remains stationary or only travels in a straight line, sure. Start throwing turns at speed in there, and that extra +/-400 lbs starts to make itself known. Let's say you weigh 200 lbs. Now let's say you're running on some sort of endurance course with lots of directional changes and other stresses on your knees and ankles. Now, let's say we strap an extra 20 lbs to your waist (or back) and put some grippy cleats on your feet. Now run that same course for 20 minutes and tell me your knees and ankles aren't feeling that "low percentage increase in weight." That weight increase isn't a 1:1 affair.

Lateral acceleration turns that 400 lbs up a few notches. If the tires aren't slipping, guess what's taking that extra load; the chassis and suspension. Race cars don't run lighter weight and welded seams for nothing.


Normally I don't give you shit because I can at least understand your position, even if I don't agree with it, but in this case I think you'r logic is flawed.

I say this because the Challenger Hellcat is more than 400 lbs heavier than the SXT Super Track Pack (STP). I have friends of mine that run road courses with the Hellcat instead of the STP and they are both much faster and quicker than the STP. One of the Hellcats is older than my GT350 and runs better lap times than my GT350 on the same track, same day.

The extra weight is compensated for in the designed of the Challenger Hellcat. So why do you think Ford wouldn't do the same thing with the GT500?
 

Tob

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The extra weight is compensated for in the designed of the Challenger Hellcat. So why do you think Ford wouldn't do the same thing with the GT500?

Lots of variables and compromise at play and it'll be interesting to see how Ford approaches this.

I suppose the first is seeing just what Ford has in mind for the car or how hard of an edge it'll have (I'm not considering anything "Drag Pack" related). We all know the car will likely have the most rubber seen on a Mustang to date with the most advanced compound to date. The car will continue to sport MacPherson struts which immediately poses numerous limitations from a performance perspective (over that of a properly done double wishbone) and it's quirky camber gain/loss curve.

The most room I see from a performance perspective would be that of the dampers. A DSSV, while not the most street friendly in standard form, saves weight and would easily make the car faster over that of the best Mag struts Ford has used to date. If Ford uses them and makes them electronically adjustable for this S550 application...the car will definitely perform at a level we haven't seen yet. The question is were they deemed too much to develop or would they have added too much to the cost of the GT500 and at what percent improvement over that of the Mag ride. The dampers will play a huge part in where any improvement comes from and I hope Ford didn't hold back here.

Out back...anyone's guess. No doubt the best vehicle dynamic engineers have tuned and tweaked in an attempt to mitigate any performance loss that could be attributed to additional heft. The differential case will likely continue to be iron, the differential a Torsen, the axles will be large diameter to handle the torque from this beast, and the brakes will likely see minimal change from that of the GT350. A lighter damper, spring and potentially lighter links are the only place I see a potential improvement in terms weight.

In general, things like the center of gravity will be very similar to that of a GT350 with a potential shift in bias towards the front due to the blower/ancillaries. Beyond CF wheels and the lighter weight DSSV's I hope there is something Ford has held back on that will come as a surprise. Things like an aluminum or composite K-member (if we can even call it that anymore) are overdue but I have a sense that Ford will lag here. I hope I'm wrong.
 

GT Premi

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Normally I don't give you shit because I can at least understand your position, even if I don't agree with it, but in this case I think you'r logic is flawed.

I say this because the Challenger Hellcat is more than 400 lbs heavier than the SXT Super Track Pack (STP). I have friends of mine that run road courses with the Hellcat instead of the STP and they are both much faster and quicker than the STP. One of the Hellcats is older than my GT350 and runs better lap times than my GT350 on the same track, same day.

The extra weight is compensated for in the designed of the Challenger Hellcat. So why do you think Ford wouldn't do the same thing with the GT500?

You guys must be running on an oval track. The Mustang GT PP2 is 10 seconds faster than the Charger Hellcat at VIR. And VIR rewards big power. Let's assume a standard GT350 runs the same as a PP2 GT. If your friends in Hellcats are beating you around a road course, that's either one super easy course or you're a really unseasoned/non-aggressive driver. (No offense intended.)
 

Tob

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No, but that's the only way your statement would make any sense.

Do you limit yourself to one sentence and not read anything else or do you choose to believe what exists in your own mind only, unwilling to grapple with the concept that there is much to learn outside your own boundary of understanding?
 

Tob

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Probably not fair to assume but based on some of the patent data it looks as though some of the hardware may have been proven out using the GT350. And because of the probable low volume nature of the GT500 it would make sense that typical chassis mounting points haven't been changed making most anything adaptable. Hopefully there is plenty of lightweight hardware that is easily "retrofittable."
 

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