Anybody running a VMP Gen 3 and their new TBs?

Catmonkey

I Void Warranties!
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
3,854
Location
Louisiana
Bigger is better when it is utilized properly.
Absolutely! I think a lot of stock 5.4s will be happier with the 2.3 TVS than the Gen 3. Here's a screen shot of a dyno on VMP's stock 2012 GT500. In this configuration, they have the 160mm TB, a JLT 123mm, 13-14 injectors and fuel pump boosters. These two pulls are with a 2.8" and 2.6" upper pullies. Note that at 5,000 rpm, you're already at 18psi with the 2.8" pulley and 21 psi at the end of the pull. Granted long tubes might drop these a bit, but a 3" pulley is probably more practical on pump gas.

VMP graph.jpg


Notice how boost in the dyno graph (graph on bottom of the page) is not liner, but progressive (i.e. increases with rpm). This is the same thing you see with stock engines on pump gas with 3 liter and larger blowers. Sure, they make max boost at the peak and boast high peak horsepower numbers, but I can promise you, you're making a lot less power than a 2.3 at the lower and mid-range levels. You can see it's reflected in the torque numbers. Here is a dyno chart from a front page article on this website when the Gen II first made it's debut. The green lines are 93 pump gas. Granted this is on top of 5.8, so we have 25 more cubic inches to feed and you can see boost starting to drop off in the higher rpm range. This run is also with a much smaller 67mm VMP twin throttle body. To some extent, the IIR probably took care of some of that drop in boost, but I can't find a comparable dyno chart. Likewise a larger throttle body would have improved the peak numbers. But compare the horsepower generated as some of the lower rpm ranges and with the one to the Gen 3. I like to look at average horsepower over a few different rpm ranges.

18-VMP-Gen2-vs-Trinity-.jpg


If you go look at some of BiminiLXs dyno pulls with his built 5.8, you'd see an even quicker drop in boost with his 2.3. He loses boost over the entire pull. My point is if your blower is not making a relatively level amount of boost throughout the pull, you're outside of the efficiency range of the blower. That's why you see that Gen 2R spanking some of the bigger blower contenders. On the other hand, I've heard some with bigger blowers contend the car is more manageable with less torque.

Now before what I posted is taken out of context, if you look at Bad Company's dyno with his 4 liter blower, you have an engine that is matched to the supercharger. Big cams and ported heads and intake can make use of the higher airflow and do it within the efficiency range of the blower.

Just food for thought, and yes, I do tend to over analyze things.
 
Last edited:

RBB

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Messages
1,354
Location
Stephens City, VA
Absolutely! I think a lot of stock 5.4s will be happier with the 2.3 TVS than the Gen 3. Here's a screen shot of a dyno on VMP's stock 2012 GT500. In this configuration, they have the 160mm TB, a JLT 123mm, 13-14 injectors and fuel pump boosters. These two pulls are with a 2.8" and 2.6" upper pullies.

View attachment 1491369

Notice how boost in the bottom graph (graph on bottom of the page) is not liner, but progressive (i.e. increases with rpm). This is the same thing you see with stock engines on pump gas with 3 liter and larger blowers. Sure, they make max boost at the peak and boast high peak horsepower numbers, but I can promise you, you're making a lot less power than a 2.3 at the lower and mid-range levels. You can see it's reflected in the torque numbers. Here is a dyno chart from a front page article on this website when the Gen II first made it's debut. The green lines are 93 pump gas. Granted this is on top of 5.8, so we have 25 more cubic inches to feed and you can see boost starting to drop off in the higher rpm range. This run is also with a much smaller 67mm VMP twin throttle body. To some extent, the IIR probably took care of some of that drop in boost, but I can't find a comparable dyno chart. Likewise a larger throttle body would have improved the peak numbers. But compare the horsepower generated as some of the lower rpm ranges and with the one to the Gen 3. I like to look at average horsepower over a few different rpm ranges.

View attachment 1491371

If you go look at some of BiminiLXs dyno pulls with his built 5.8, you'd see an even quicker drop in boost with his 2.3. He loses boost over the entire pull. My point is if your blower is not making a relatively level amount of boost throughout the pull, you're outside of the efficiency range of the blower. That's why you see that Gen 2R spanking some of the bigger blower contenders. On the other hand, I've heard some with bigger blowers contend the car is more manageable with less torque.

Now before what I posted is taken out of context, if you look at Bad Company's dyno with his 4 liter blower, you have an engine that is matched to the supercharger. Big cams and ported heads and intake can make use of the higher airflow and do it within the efficiency range of the blower.

Just food for thought, and yes, I do tend to over analyze things.
Exactly right. Take a look at a graph of my built and cammed 5.8 with a Trinity TVS. Boost (green line) peaks at over 19lbs a little before 4K RPMS and rapidly falls off to 16lbs by the end of the pull. Definitely need a bigger blower to match the airflow capabilities of the setup.

5C1E35BF-45E8-40E9-9DA8-DAAD6A87C87E.jpeg
 
Last edited:

craustin1

Member
Established Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
31
Location
Chandler, AZ
A couple of install notes for any of you doing a Gen 3 install. I was really busy the last 3 or 4 days, so had minimal time to work on the car. Hardest part for me was the EGR valve. The bolts would just not line up. I tried a half dozen things. What finally worked was to unbolt the supercharger, and raise it about half an inch near the valve. Only then was I able to do it. Also, when drilling the aluminum piece that allows the supercharger to fit, pay close attention to what the drill is doing as it goes down. I ended up with a small drill indentation from the head of the drill on to the top of the water piece. I will try and post a pic tomorrow of it.
 

craustin1

Member
Established Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
31
Location
Chandler, AZ
You can see what I am talking about on this pick, on the right side of the supercharger. I ended up with a piece from the aluminum shaved off
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20180529_090126-2016x1512.jpg
    IMG_20180529_090126-2016x1512.jpg
    395.5 KB · Views: 617

HandBanana

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2013
Messages
2,417
Location
Nashville TN
One of the VMP guys hangs out on The Other Site and talks constant shit about beating up on KBs that half again as big.

I've "beat up" on several other Shelbys and Cobras with massive blowers. Just depends on the setup. Takes a lot more engine power to crank those big KB and Whipple blowers. At that point, I'd rather have a turbo setup instead of taking on that much parasitic loss.
 

gimmie11s

I Race Pontiacs
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2004
Messages
18,585
Location
la la land
You can see what I am talking about on this pick, on the right side of the supercharger. I ended up with a piece from the aluminum shaved off

Stock TB ???

Ford gt500.com. Don't have the thread handy but poster is vnmous1

That's BJ and he's no longer a VMP guy. he used to be their VP of Sales or something along those lines..

Believe he has a Gen3 whipple on his car now.
 

biminiLX

never stock
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
13,275
Location
Toledo, OH
He now has a Whipple Gen 3 2.9 if you mean BJ.
Any well driven and well modded TVS Shelby is a serious performer, but apply the same formula to larger blower and you’ll be even faster.
I just ordered a built 9” and our driving season is short, I may finetune the Gen2R and use the plate NOS in the lower intake and beat up on the bigger blowers but eventually you recognize a 2.3 is undersized on a built 5.4/5.8
This 2650 rotor pack out punches it’s size, but it will eventually gain with a modified R case. Still even counting parasitic losses, the well designed 4.0L will slay, only concern is crank stress.
So who is shooting for the big 2650 dyno number?
I really think 1100rwhp is the ceiling on our cars.
-J
 

VNMOUS1

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
4,879
Location
Eustis, FL
Stock TB ???



That's BJ and he's no longer a VMP guy. he used to be their VP of Sales or something along those lines..

Believe he has a Gen3 whipple on his car now.
He was business mgr, gm and did most of the GT500 tuning.

He left their last year and has his own company.

I know him.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

RedVenom48

Let's go Brandon!
Established Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
7,973
Location
Arizona
Just wondering out loud, how much room is there for porting?

Id like to think Roush and VMP have this case optimized as much as possible.
 

biminiLX

never stock
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
13,275
Location
Toledo, OH
I can only tell you from the Coyote S197 Gen 3 I’ve seen that the case could benefit from an ‘R’ series in that there is room on the S197. I know the case has to fit GT500, F150, and GT both S550 and S197 so there are compromises.
In regards to S197 there is room to grow the rear plenum to allow more volume and improve flow to the rotor pack. Not sure how much that is worth but I guarantee anyone wanting the absolute most from this unit could improve it some.
-J
 

RBB

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Messages
1,354
Location
Stephens City, VA
I can only tell you from the Coyote S197 Gen 3 I’ve seen that the case could benefit from an ‘R’ series in that there is room on the S197. I know the case has to fit GT500, F150, and GT both S550 and S197 so there are compromises.
In regards to S197 there is room to grow the rear plenum to allow more volume and improve flow to the rotor pack. Not sure how much that is worth but I guarantee anyone wanting the absolute most from this unit could improve it some.
-J
Teixeira has already done that mod to a Gen3, saw the pics on FB last week. Hasn't given any numbers yet, but dyno results will be coming soon.
 

craustin1

Member
Established Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
31
Location
Chandler, AZ
Stock TB ???

Yes, since no tuning yet on 160mm (which I have). I think I am just going to do the twin 167mm for now.



That's BJ and he's no longer a VMP guy. he used to be their VP of Sales or something along those lines..

Believe he has a Gen3 whipple on his car now.
 

Users who are viewing this thread



Top