Whole life insurance

Ohio Snake

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There are two life insurance systems worth using.

1. Buy term and invest the difference.
+ if smart, this is all you’ll ever need.
- it will require hands on approaches and practicality.

2. When you have cash or assets eating a hole hole in your brain, you can look into max funded universal life/annuities. Very few people know about this. It’s tax free and very easy to do wrong.

-the soonest you can max fund these is 4 years and 1 day. You can do this in 25/25/25/24.999/.001% chunks.

These were never designed for the mass or public to use them as I’m about to describe. That said, large companies and wealth magnets have done this from Walt Disney to bill gates.

Max funding a well working and smartly tied policy will average 6-9% of completely tax free growth annually on the amount invested. This can then be surrendered and instead have the capital asset indexes against (your choice) smart indexes such as the nasdaq, etc. Very nice choice during election years as almost always, the markets are put into rally mode make the incumbent look great. Example, 2012 say over 17% in the nasdaq. A nasdaq-indexed max funded account routinely saw 15+% that year. Again tax free period. The government will never tax life insurance because the welfare costs would skyrocket in there stead. The collect e tax would never matter compared to the social security pay outs 5 years later.

Anyways... Let’s assume $100,000 is being put into one of these policy’s to be representing a $105,000 life insurance policy. Put tons in to have very little coverage. Sounds dumb but watch.

Year 1, $25k goes in day one, and you pay about ~$200/mo for the that year. This is the gap. It covers the insurance company if you died that year (en mass on those policy numbers). You’ll have paid an additional $2400 by day 1 of year 2.

Year 2, put another $25k in. Now your basically breaking even. Now interest made, but no money out. Your money is earning 6%, but the gap costs about that.

Year 3, put another $25k in. Now you are making about 3% completely tax free. You have $75k in. By the end of the year, it will be about $77,500. The other 3% of interest earned is being used to cover the gap.

Year 4. Put another $24,999.99 in. The day after, put a penny in. That year your money will make roughly 6-9%. You have $102,500 from day 2 of year 4 as collateral for a $105k policy. The gap is now about .1% as an assessed penalty. Meaning your $102,500 will grow basically at 6-9% that year depending on the markets etc. By the end of the year, you will have about $110k and your policy will now have evolved to about $110,500. It will raise to remain about .5% higher than your capital.

Here is the kicker. Unlike a 401k or Roth IRA, if the market takes a shit and drops 33% like 2008, the floor is growth based. Your money will not be dragged down. It grows with the market, but it’s not invested in the market, cash and loans against it held by the insurance company are invested and redistributed to you as reimbursement. When a terrible year hits, your $110k stays at $110k. When the market returns 1-2 years later, your money begins to grow agains. If you chose to index the capital, you cannot hurt the capital, you can only surrender the set rate of return. If that was going to be 6-9%, and you muck it indexing a bad tech sector, oh well. If you do well, you could net 17% (max cap unfortunately in many of these) on an otherwise flat year. Think about that, it’s completely tax free money.

You can also end the policy at any time and pull the money out. You can have multiple policy’s. You can also borrow against the policy’s cash, and again the policy death payout grows as your account increases.

That doesn’t sound very impressive as life insurance, but if you know anything about rates of return and general investing, especially passive investing, you can quickly see why I and many take the time to explain these. Almost no one knows anything about these.

Many real estate moguls will take loaner money and max fund these policys, and borrow against them to continue their venture. Within 3-4 years, they have made not only a great (hopefully) realestate addition such as a strip mall or neighborhood to their portfolio, but also have generated over 40% on the capital borrowed, and deducted the mortgage interest annually to counter balance expenses and capital costs.

Once they have the money in one of these accounts and it’s been over 4 years, they can choose to up the coverage to say $5,000,000 and put in what is needed to come within .5% of that. And again, it will be growing at a very healthy 5-6%. The idea is to start one of these very early in life with about $50k over 4 years and 1 day, then balloon it. You cannot balloon them very often, I believe there is a 5 year period between upping them.

But back to your question, anything except the two types of insurance I described are expensive and less than efficient.

Also, I am not a tax accountant, and most don’t have a clue about these. My own had no clue then was blown away when she read up on them... she’s 60 and very very smart.

You just described a method of Non-MEC level premium funding on a Fixed Indexed life insurance policy. Pretty cool since it the only FIFO insurance product around.


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Ohio Snake

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You just described a method of Non-MEC level premium funding on a Fixed Indexed life insurance policy. Pretty cool since it the only FIFO insurance product around.


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You forgot one additional item the wealthy may do. Premium finance for the 5-7 years with interest only payments to leverage their cash.


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jaxbusa

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When and why would you pull cash out of a whole life policy? Again, I was told it would have an 8% interest rate.


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tt335ci03cobra

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You forgot one additional item the wealthy may do. Premium finance for the 5-7 years with interest only payments to leverage their cash.


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Indeed, also many take out a 30 year mortgage on a paid off house to then use that money to max fund a policy, and write off the mortgage interest.

Basically any business owner will hire an employee at $20k a year that generates $60,000 to 150,000 a year. The payroll is an expense, and the income is nice. But that scenario is not tax free obviously.

A secured mortgage at 2-3% interest can be substantially tax deducted By about a 3rd or more depending on how it’s set up. That means 2-3% cost basis on 6-15% return.

Now we see (on $1,000,000) $20-30k spent to make $30-120k of profit. That’s 150%-300% return on investment. Every single year. Refinance it every 3 years on another 30 year. Never pay it off, watch the investment account compound.
 

tt335ci03cobra

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FiFo is first in first out.

Mec is modified endowment contracts

Ohio snake, I’ve been exposed to these tactics within the last 6 months and am positioning my assets to begin these tactics.

What pitfalls do you foresee
What pros and cons are there?

I do not expect quick wealth, but instead want to watch a few of these grow over 30 years and let the rule of 72 play out nicely.

I already have a traditional 750k 20 year remaining term policy.
 

tt335ci03cobra

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When and why would you pull cash out of a whole life policy? Again, I was told it would have an 8% interest rate.


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Assuming your other financial circumstances were net stressed, I would personally do so as soon as possible and place the money and monthly payments into vehicles I understand better. I personally dismantled a whole life policy years ago and invested it into real estate which I later sold for over 100% return 5 years later. That said, if you leveraged smartly, a funded investment could have very good returns but it opens a Pandora’s box.

I personally am not a fan of whole life, but I like what I see in max funded universal life.
 

ON D BIT

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You die. You family gets money. The end.

The family gets the policy funds yes. However the money you put into the investment which gained a lousy rate of return goes to your insurance company not your beneficiaries.

Can someone explain whole life insurance in layman’s terms? I spoke with my financial planner and, for a second time, he suggested whole life. I currently have term. He said that you can borrow from it, if needed, at an 8% interest. And that’s where he began to lose me. I’m 38 years old and married. I don’t have kids, just a mortgage. My mindset is that I will keep the term until the mortgage is paid off. If I go with whole life, I will pay a lot and never see the money If I die. Would the money spent on whole life be better for my wife in deferred compensation, money market or other? Please explain how whole life insurance would work for me.


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It’s junk. Don’t get it. Cost too much, you lose your investment, lousy interest rate of return. Your investment advisor recommends it as it is a rip off and he will get more money through his commission as it cost more than term.

Term Life vs. Whole Life Insurance
 
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Ohio Snake

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Its very clear you understand this concept and the many ways this funding can be helpful. The average person will not understand it.

The Pros and Cons really come down sex, health and lifestyle and policy design. Healthy women typically have a lower Cost Of Insurance than men. A second-to-die policy may be more beneficial if utilized with a separate term policy. Those with health issues and/or tobacco users can impact Cost Of Insurance ( COI) to be a hinderance for Non MEC level premium funding.

The correct policy type ( preferably variable or some fixed indexed) with proper design is key. Death benefit option B ( death plus cash value option) also enhances chronic illness “ pool of cash” with additional cost.

The IRS and Congress have tried to impose taxation on cash value growth and restrictions on abused 419 plans in the past. Taxation has been discussed for 30+ years with good resistance. 419 plans have been subject to IRS audits. As long as the current IRS provisions stay put, life insurance is a safe haven.

As you may be aware, we mention life contracts as FIFO contracts. Annuities are LIFO contracts. Should IRS rules change in the future, the outlet would be tax exclusion ratio distributions in non-qualified annuity contracts. As of today, only one carrier allows this without solid annuitization as per IRS Private Letter Ruling. Lincoln Financial has this process somewhat protected as proprietary concept until late 2019. I expect more carriers to jump in this arena in 2020 and beyond. Essentially, ratio distributions allow a portion of cost basis to be included in distributions resulting in higher net income.

Its good to see others know and talk about this little known strategy which can be a huge benefit.....and we have not even scratched the surface on potential positive impact this strategy can have on social security benefits!




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Ohio Snake

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When and why would you pull cash out of a whole life policy? Again, I was told it would have an 8% interest rate.


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A few things to remember and it is imperative to read the contract.Typically, you can take distributions up to the cost basis of your contract First. This considered non-taxable. Gain portion can be loaned out of the policy at a set interest rate (8% you mentioned). Depending on your tax bracket and length of loan time, may be better to utilize the loan.
One key component is missing in your information. The crediting method of the cash value may include the loan balance as well. Lets assume your contract is credited with 6 percent growth and you have and 8% loan. The impaired loan interest is actually 2% (8% gross loan interest less 6% crediting = 2% net loan interest). Some carriers credit equal to loan interest (0% loan).
Add the death benefit which is still intact and you have tax free income with a tax free death benefit. Always keep in mind, death benefits remain level, but at the time of death...the loan balance reduced from the death benefit dollar for dollar.


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Ohio Snake

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The family gets the policy funds yes. However the money you put into the investment which gained a lousy rate of return goes to your insurance company not your beneficiaries.

Not necessarily. If you think about it, the life insurance company bears the burden of a death payment.



It’s junk. Don’t get it. Cost too much, you lose your investment, lousy interest rate of return. Your investment advisor recommends it as it is a rip off and he will get more money through his commission as it cost more than term.

Term Life vs. Whole Life Insurance

A poorly written policy can be junk. The majority of life contracts are not considered as an investment. They are considered as life insurance. The rate of return is totally dependent on the crediting method ( fixed, fixed indexed or variable) and the cost of insurance based on the insured underwriting.

I am an investment advisor and do recommend various types of life contracts to clients if the product serves a particular need or goal. Most policies utilized are term insurance to cover debt or income. Permanent policies are typically utilized to transfer wealth, while complex policies are used for tax strategies on income.

Lets talk commission for life insurance. First and foremost, commissions are carrier established, not advisor established. Some term policies can pay commissions in excess of the first year premium ( highest I’ve seen is 125%) Typically, term policies give the best bang for the buck yielding a higher death benefit sale and potentially high commission. The volume of term insurance sales commissions can be yield high compensation. When your term expires and you need to replace it...another commission sale for the agent.
Permanent policies have reduced target commissions typically 45% to 75% of the first year premium ( can be reduced further for age 70 or older). For the High Net Worth individual, the tax savings the policy provides far outweighs the commission generated to the agent.
A good advisor will shop various carriers for the best policy which fulfills the need of the client. Sounds to me you may have had a bad experience with an agent or sold a policy not suitable for what you were trying to accomplish. Granted, there are scrupulous agents out there.





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ZEN357

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My Father was an insurance agent for over 30 years so I can answer your question to the best of my ability. Term - is exactly what it says, Term, you pay your premium for lets say 30 years, at the end of 30 years of you haven't died you have nothing. The term runs out and the insurance ends. Whole - you pay into it. Let says you have $50,000 whole life, you make payments until the $50,000 is paid of or you die. At the end when you die your beneficiary gets $50,000. If you die before you pay the $50,000 off your beneficiary still gets $50,000. Make sense?
 

Ohio Snake

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I listen to Dave Ramsey so I'm not a whole life fan.
The Truth About Life Insurance

I’m not a whole life fan myself. Dave Ramsey is a very good counselor on debt reduction and advocated term insurance for those are trying to build wealth while staying protected.
The methods we discussed early for cash value plans and MEC limit funding are for those who are may be beyond that position. Of course, policy types are not limited to certain people. It all depends on what you wNt the policy to do for you. Your goal sounds like low cost life insurance for a specific time period and invest/ or save for the the future in another account/s which is perfectly fine.


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Ohio Snake

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My Father was an insurance agent for over 30 years so I can answer your question to the best of my ability. Term - is exactly what it says, Term, you pay your premium for lets say 30 years, at the end of 30 years of you haven't died you have nothing. The term runs out and the insurance ends. Whole - you pay into it. Let says you have $50,000 whole life, you make payments until the $50,000 is paid of or you die. At the end when you die your beneficiary gets $50,000. If you die before you pay the $50,000 off your beneficiary still gets $50,000. Make sense?

Makes total sense. You described the method of endowing a policy which is typical for whole life. Your dad taught you well.


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ON D BIT

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You pay pennies on the dollar for term life. You then can put the money you saved not buying whole life into your own investments through your investment advisor, and one should be able to make a greater rate of return. In addition that additional investment savings goes to your family if you die.
With the cash value whole life policy, the deceased family only gets the insurance payout not the cash investment that was your money.
 

KILLERARMY

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Make sure you read the fine print very,very carefully.My dad had a GLOBE life Insurance policy on his sister. When she pass,my dad spoke with GLOBE about her passing. GLOBE Life Insurance told him that she out live the policy and can not collect the money to pay for here funeral. My dad had a back up plan for her and the funeral was all paid for.
 

GM Nitemare

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Why is whole life more expensive than term? Because it's worth it. Look at the cash surrender value of a whole life policy in year 20 vs the total amount of premiums you paid into a Term policy. When you buy whole life insurance, you're done with it. You don't need to renew it or have it re-written at time of renewal like term insurance. It's payable until you DIE. Term insurance does have it's place. But it's not the best insurance to have. I am a Financial Advisor. I just met with a client 20 minutes ago. Here is what his whole life policy looks like:
Purchased- Feb 06/1997
Death benefit=$100,000.00
Monthly premium=$64.60
Cash surrender value today=$22,670.56
Cost of policy=64.60 x 255(months)=$16,473.00
CASH VALUE INCREASE OVER PREMIUM PAID=$6197.56
If he had purchased a Term 20 policy back in Feb 1997. He would have paid close to $6000.00 for it, with no cash value. His renewal rate would be out of this world(he's 61 now, and in poor health) In my opinion. Those people who tell you that Term Insurance is the best or the only type of insurance to buy are simply uneducated.
 

M91196

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Everyone has a different level of investment “comfort”. You should consult with an investment advisor or financial planner. A good advisor can make a difference.

A good CPA that works with your advisor is a big plus. Its not always about how much money you have, but how much you keep at retirement...........

Thanks for taking the time to respond, you’ve gone above and beyond. I’ll do my homework now. Luckily I have 15 to go and a decent chunk saved, so hopefully I’ll make it.
 

tt335ci03cobra

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Why is whole life more expensive than term? Because it's worth it. Look at the cash surrender value of a whole life policy in year 20 vs the total amount of premiums you paid into a Term policy. When you buy whole life insurance, you're done with it. You don't need to renew it or have it re-written at time of renewal like term insurance. It's payable until you DIE. Term insurance does have it's place. But it's not the best insurance to have. I am a Financial Advisor. I just met with a client 20 minutes ago. Here is what his whole life policy looks like:
Purchased- Feb 06/1997
Death benefit=$100,000.00
Monthly premium=$64.60
Cash surrender value today=$22,670.56
Cost of policy=64.60 x 255(months)=$16,473.00
CASH VALUE INCREASE OVER PREMIUM PAID=$6197.56
If he had purchased a Term 20 policy back in Feb 1997. He would have paid close to $6000.00 for it, with no cash value. His renewal rate would be out of this world(he's 61 now, and in poor health) In my opinion. Those people who tell you that Term Insurance is the best or the only type of insurance to buy are simply uneducated.

I have a 30 year term policy that started as $500k and has grown with a rider to $750 (capped) and it costs me at 28 years old about $38 a month.

What you are describing is indeed a great experience for someone who does not die, and for their family, so that the policy holder can recoup the cost of the policy. Correct.

I have a great net worth into 7 figures but I also have about 18% debt to asset value representing a substanceial 6 figure amount.

I would be very unfortunate to carry a whole life policy because it would cost me 7-10 times as much to have the coverage I would need. I can invest or live off the difference better than surrender or so forth will be for me 25 years from now. By paying $38 a month now, I am safely able, as well as with the key man clause on my head, to pass earlier than expected and not leave a mess behind for my loved ones.

Term in my scenario is best. What you described is indeed a viable avenue to pursue when debts or more so funeral expenses are destined to be within a small 5 to low 6 figure sum.

In my case, a whole policy would be very costly and impact my monthly budget too severly, regardless of income or ability to surrender 20 years later.

I think I am educated enough to decide that term is best for me right now.

For people using a life insurance policy to cover remaining debts over $100,000, term is almost always the most viable choice. There are exclusions to most any systems, but by and large, term insurance is in my opinion very very applicable and prudent.

I still love what I study and learn regarding max funded universal life. It’s looking to be a vehicle I will add to my stable.
 

Ohio Snake

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I have a 30 year term policy that started as $500k and has grown with a rider to $750 (capped) and it costs me at 28 years old about $38 a month.

What you are describing is indeed a great experience for someone who does not die, and for their family, so that the policy holder can recoup the cost of the policy. Correct.

I have a great net worth into 7 figures but I also have about 18% debt to asset value representing a substanceial 6 figure amount.

I would be very unfortunate to carry a whole life policy because it would cost me 7-10 times as much to have the coverage I would need. I can invest or live off the difference better than surrender or so forth will be for me 25 years from now. By paying $38 a month now, I am safely able, as well as with the key man clause on my head, to pass earlier than expected and not leave a mess behind for my loved ones.

Term in my scenario is best. What you described is indeed a viable avenue to pursue when debts or more so funeral expenses are destined to be within a small 5 to low 6 figure sum.

In my case, a whole policy would be very costly and impact my monthly budget too severly, regardless of income or ability to surrender 20 years later.

I think I am educated enough to decide that term is best for me right now.

For people using a life insurance policy to cover remaining debts over $100,000, term is almost always the most viable choice. There are exclusions to most any systems, but by and large, term insurance is in my opinion very very applicable and prudent.

I still love what I study and learn regarding max funded universal life. It’s looking to be a vehicle I will add to my stable.

I’ll chime in again. Term insurance works perfect for what YOU need and how YOU will use it. There is nothing wrong with your philosophy.

Term is utilized for the majority of life insurance needs due to the low UPFRONT cost for a specified period of time.

Cash value policies may serve the same purpose, however there are many scenarios cash value policies are better to utilize over term insurance. Again, it all depends on what the owner wants.
The key to a good policy is making sure the policy features align with the goals of the owner AND the owner fully understands the policy.
Someone mentioned the cash value is lost at the time of death in a cash value policy. That statement is not entirely true depending on how the policy is written.

I’ve read a lot of misinformation and opinions on life policies. Again it depends on what you want.

Here’s a potential complex scenario. Lets see if any one can answer this and why:

Meet Tom:
Tom is 68 years old and retired. He is single.
Tom has an old 401K converted to a traditional IRA with a balance of $1,000,000.
Tom has social security income of $30k annually.
Tom is taking distributions from his IRA of $50k annually.
His federal tax bracket id 25%.

Meet Jerry
Jerry is also 68 years old and retired. He is single and a good friend of Tom.
Jerry has an old 401k converted to a traditional IRA with a balance of $500,000.
Jerry has a variable life insurance policy with an option B death benefit of $500,000 and cash value of $300,000.
Jerry has social security income of $30K annually.
Jerry is taking distributions from his IRA of $25K annually
His federal tax bracket is 25%.

Question: Which one ( Tom or Jerry) has the highest net annual income ( spending cash), including social security, after federal taxes are paid?

Why?

I think it will be interesting to see what answers are generated.




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