Anyone else frustrated with Ford over the next GT500?
- Thread starter biminiLX
- Start date
HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIf it doesn’t run 9’s it’s a turd.
Lol
Hoping it gets at least mid 10s stock but I’m skeptical. Guessing it’s going to cater to the track crowd with lower 700 hp and good track capabilities for a 4000+ Lbs.
At that weight, would have preferred straight line speed with minimal track ability. 02c
Carrying on with evil twin, et al:
The current crate motor cost for a voodoo is more than an ls7. What’s your point?
Nobody building track day toys and project builds starts with a state of the art crate engine. Most everybody sources a used engine, from salvage yards, or gets an older crate engine package that has come down in price. Ls7’s were once $30k. Now it’s like $15k iirc. The coyote is 7 years old. Brand new they were $15k iirc. Now they are like $8k.
People end up buying something reasonable. I can compare an ls3 to a coyote and show you a better price comparison as both are 7 year old tech.
There’s no disputing that an ohv mill is far easier to use for a project car or any car for that matter.
Gone are the days when we had carburetors, and leaded gas. With modern ecu’s, and the innovations like direct injection, variable valve timing, and so forth, the ohv/dohc debate has far fewer pluses going to the Dohc.
Look, I own and paid for a very trick 5.3L dohc, it’s very light, has 425+whp na with just 9.3/1, and as boosted makes 800whp on just 10psi. It cranks out 1070 on 20psi and a soft tune. Dohc is awesome for making reliable big power at high rpm. It’s the best way to go when turbocharging bar none.
That said, a supercharged ohv is easily going to put out 400-800hp, and that is more power than most all street cars will ever need.
Put a lighter piston and rod in an lt1, with a space age material crank, and get some lighter valve covers as well as lighter valve train and timing assembly, there’s 25-50lbs. Delete the emissions compliance systems, take out the cylinder deactivation, and throw on nice quality headers and a trick intake manifold, there’s another 20-30lbs at least. It takes $10k to build a very light very trick modular or coyote. The heads are very expensive. My fgt heads, stage 3 pnp, and stage 3 cams with all the timing and ss/titanium valve train were $7500 before degreeing and installing them. Add another $500 for that, and you have $8k for badass heads on a modular. Now find an intake manifold to run those heads on a 4.6 based deck. That’s minimum $1000. My fr500c was $2300 before redoing the injectors and fuel rails, cables, and plumes. If you have a coyote, cut the price in half on the head/cam/valvetrain work, and your being generous. It’s about $4500 to do up coyote heads and cams to where they match a ported fgt head. 360/310 [email protected]~
It’s $3-4K on an ohv to get very trick hci.
I’m talking very light valvetrain, light head covers, a custom cam, tuned, installed, etc. You can add 50-75hp to an lt1 with cheap off the shelf hci packages under $2k. A modular is very lucky to gain 50-75hp with an excellent hci combo, and a coyote is about 40-50hp but it’s also starting way closer to optimal. This all said obviously the built hci coyote or modular will continue to pay dividends as power levels, boost, and rpm rise, but again, 400-800hp is very attainable with a moderate ohv build that will literally cost half that of a mod mill build.
Regardless if an lt1 costs more than a coyote in a catalogue brand new, we all know which one costs more to build/rebuild a head, change cams, or fix a valve seat issue. Rockers, pushrods and lifters are much easier to deal with than rebuilding and degree-ing - dohc heads.
The current crate motor cost for a voodoo is more than an ls7. What’s your point?
Nobody building track day toys and project builds starts with a state of the art crate engine. Most everybody sources a used engine, from salvage yards, or gets an older crate engine package that has come down in price. Ls7’s were once $30k. Now it’s like $15k iirc. The coyote is 7 years old. Brand new they were $15k iirc. Now they are like $8k.
People end up buying something reasonable. I can compare an ls3 to a coyote and show you a better price comparison as both are 7 year old tech.
There’s no disputing that an ohv mill is far easier to use for a project car or any car for that matter.
Gone are the days when we had carburetors, and leaded gas. With modern ecu’s, and the innovations like direct injection, variable valve timing, and so forth, the ohv/dohc debate has far fewer pluses going to the Dohc.
Look, I own and paid for a very trick 5.3L dohc, it’s very light, has 425+whp na with just 9.3/1, and as boosted makes 800whp on just 10psi. It cranks out 1070 on 20psi and a soft tune. Dohc is awesome for making reliable big power at high rpm. It’s the best way to go when turbocharging bar none.
That said, a supercharged ohv is easily going to put out 400-800hp, and that is more power than most all street cars will ever need.
Put a lighter piston and rod in an lt1, with a space age material crank, and get some lighter valve covers as well as lighter valve train and timing assembly, there’s 25-50lbs. Delete the emissions compliance systems, take out the cylinder deactivation, and throw on nice quality headers and a trick intake manifold, there’s another 20-30lbs at least. It takes $10k to build a very light very trick modular or coyote. The heads are very expensive. My fgt heads, stage 3 pnp, and stage 3 cams with all the timing and ss/titanium valve train were $7500 before degreeing and installing them. Add another $500 for that, and you have $8k for badass heads on a modular. Now find an intake manifold to run those heads on a 4.6 based deck. That’s minimum $1000. My fr500c was $2300 before redoing the injectors and fuel rails, cables, and plumes. If you have a coyote, cut the price in half on the head/cam/valvetrain work, and your being generous. It’s about $4500 to do up coyote heads and cams to where they match a ported fgt head. 360/310 [email protected]~
It’s $3-4K on an ohv to get very trick hci.
I’m talking very light valvetrain, light head covers, a custom cam, tuned, installed, etc. You can add 50-75hp to an lt1 with cheap off the shelf hci packages under $2k. A modular is very lucky to gain 50-75hp with an excellent hci combo, and a coyote is about 40-50hp but it’s also starting way closer to optimal. This all said obviously the built hci coyote or modular will continue to pay dividends as power levels, boost, and rpm rise, but again, 400-800hp is very attainable with a moderate ohv build that will literally cost half that of a mod mill build.
Regardless if an lt1 costs more than a coyote in a catalogue brand new, we all know which one costs more to build/rebuild a head, change cams, or fix a valve seat issue. Rockers, pushrods and lifters are much easier to deal with than rebuilding and degree-ing - dohc heads.
Last edited:
So ford should step back to the future 30 years and release a very trick 8.0L ohv v8 with 500cfm heads at .500L, and 1000hp na other wise this new gt500 will be a complete and total failure. (Complete sarcasm but that would be an awesome engine)
I hope the new GT500 is a transition from the GT350R similar to what Porsche did with the GT3RS to the GT2RS model.
I’m hoping this is the reason it is taking a bit for it to finally hit the streets.
I’m watching carefully what Ford is doing as I’m very interested in purchasing one.
I’m hoping this is the reason it is taking a bit for it to finally hit the streets.
I’m watching carefully what Ford is doing as I’m very interested in purchasing one.
Porsche model names are confusing as F.
Not really and they are actually less confusing than the Ford/Chevy production line/models.
We should go talk to Ted Britt and see if we can get a discount on a "group buy". We have to have at least one or two other guys willing to throw in with us. LOL
Last edited:
My point is that while, yes, the OHV has it's benefits, there is no reason to make up some of the advantages that don't exist anymore. The LT1 is the current OHV engine in the Camaro, not the LS3. There is no reason to be talking about the LS3 at this point. Same with removing all of the emissions stuff (illegal), I don't see the point of bringing that stuff up. At that point, you may as well just be talking about swapping in a 460 bbf with a stroker. The manufacturers all have to play by a set of rules, and with current rules and regulations, the Coyote 3rd Gen is doing just fine as will the next gen GT500 engine.
BTW the LT1 is older than the Gen 2 Coyote.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
The coyote crate engine you can buy today that is cheaper than an lt1 makes 435hp, and costs 8-10k. The lt1 costs 9-12k. It makes an additional 20hp and 35tq. These are not insignificant differences, but they are also basically a wash. $1k for 20/35 is no big deal. People spend $1200 on headers, and $400-500 for a cai.
Now, contrary to your view that I’m bringing up useless things:
-try fitting a either of these engines in a Miata, or a foxbody, I’ll wait.
-try repairing the head/cam on the coyote
-lemme know what mpg you get with each on a cross country cruise
-why are you suggesting people buy $10k engines for $2-5k project cars?
-why are you lamenting the weight advantages of pulling emissions compliance equipment off as illegal when there are towns that don’t have any of those screenings? I live in one where it’s safety only, as do many people bud. And almost all enthusiasts yank the cats, and emissions equipment off up here. Also, if illegality is a big worriesome issue, why bother buying or building cars that have more power than you could ever need to reach 70mph? It’s not a discouraging reach to assume 100% of people buying v8 muscle cars engage in illegal driving. Save the holier than though facade for another venue, this is a car enthusiasts forum. Wrong audience. Half the people in this very thread probably don’t have cats on their cars.
-explain again to me how the Modern LT1 is older than the coyote. I’d love to hear this one. The gen 2 coyote is +/- the same price as the crate LT1 from jegs. It’s also less powerful.
Now, contrary to your view that I’m bringing up useless things:
-try fitting a either of these engines in a Miata, or a foxbody, I’ll wait.
-try repairing the head/cam on the coyote
-lemme know what mpg you get with each on a cross country cruise
-why are you suggesting people buy $10k engines for $2-5k project cars?
-why are you lamenting the weight advantages of pulling emissions compliance equipment off as illegal when there are towns that don’t have any of those screenings? I live in one where it’s safety only, as do many people bud. And almost all enthusiasts yank the cats, and emissions equipment off up here. Also, if illegality is a big worriesome issue, why bother buying or building cars that have more power than you could ever need to reach 70mph? It’s not a discouraging reach to assume 100% of people buying v8 muscle cars engage in illegal driving. Save the holier than though facade for another venue, this is a car enthusiasts forum. Wrong audience. Half the people in this very thread probably don’t have cats on their cars.
-explain again to me how the Modern LT1 is older than the coyote. I’d love to hear this one. The gen 2 coyote is +/- the same price as the crate LT1 from jegs. It’s also less powerful.
Last edited:
Haha, I had my 03 cobra hood take a solid chunk off my dome/right ear... piece of heavy fiberglass sh*t...
I can easily say I never had mine bash my head lol, I only had the car for under a year though so who knows what could have been in store for me
The LT1 was released in '14 with the Corvette, the Gen 2 Coyote in '15.
You keep wanting to talk about modded old cars with older engines when the discussion is about the upcoming (NEW) GT500 and the (NEW) 5.0's Ford is offering in the current cars.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
I was hoping something similar would be the case, too, but now I'm not too hopeful.
The GT2 and GT3 stand for racing classes. The cars are homages to those racing classes. Just like on Audi vehicles, the RS just stands for Renn Sport, the firm that builds those models. "RS" is Porsche's/Audi's version of M/AMG/SVT, etc.
I think you're forgetting about the displacement differences. The 5.0 DOHC Coyote makes basically the same power as the 6.2 OHV LT1. And that's the reason Ford eventually moved to OHC engines in the Mustang, to make comparable power with much less displacement. You have to rev out the DOHC more, but Mustang fans tend to like revs.
Plenty of people have done and are doing Coyote swaps into Fox bodies. There's a member on SVTP who has GT500-swapped a Fox body, interior and all.
Especially in cold temperatures!
I wonder if Ford will release another teaser video of the next GT500?
FWIW, on a long drive (8 hours) between my car, 17 S550 GTPP, and my buddy's car, 15 Camaro SS, the Mustang did a little better.
Few points to make:
-Both cars were on factory wheels and tires, and the front tires on the Mustang are a little wider
-Both cars were loaded up with stuff and had 2 passengers
-The Mustang runs about 500rpm more on the highway
-I also forgot to reset my trip meter for like the first 20 miles and didn't take that into account when calculating.
-I was surprised, he wasn't.
I’ve seen decent mileage from my built setup, and mustangs in general, but no better than Camaros or corvettes. What I do notice in mustangs and Camaros is the extra torque in the chevys. They gear them much more like 03 cobra’s, and they almost pull from very low like an 03 cobra.
The coyote cars are geared like a Miata, and they feel soft at 2000rpm compared with on the Chevys. 3750lbs and 300-325tq at that rpm is a little soft. The Camaro is around 3650 with about 375-400tq at 2000rpm. Makes a lot of difference.
For all the extra around town power, the 6.2L basically gets the same mpg as the ford, but it’s a much easier engine and to find power in na.
At evil twin, so if you want to talk power today, I think the lt1 is better overal vs the gen 3 coyote. A gen 3 coyote is more expensive than an lt1, and it fits easier in anything.
Someone said coyote swaps are common in foxes, and sure they are. But it’s much more involved than putting in an lt1 or a Ford ohv would be.
Stepping back to my original point, ohv v8’s have gotten to be so good (lt1’s, mopar 6.1/6.4 LT4, etc) that the argument for a dohc us mute save rev happy driving. That said, just as ohv’s have evolved into having cylinder deactivation, direct injection, variable valve timing, etc, I think it wouldn’t be very hard to also build one with heavier duty components and some enginuity that could smoothly rev to 8000rpm nice and safe. It may not be 6.2L, but 5.5-6.0 with a short stroke and wide bore wouldn’t be a real issue to get 8k out of.
Again I have put my money where my mouth is, and drank all the koolaid, but the reality I’ve seen is if 400-800hp is the goal, put an ohv in and build it to meet your desired build.
The coyote cars are geared like a Miata, and they feel soft at 2000rpm compared with on the Chevys. 3750lbs and 300-325tq at that rpm is a little soft. The Camaro is around 3650 with about 375-400tq at 2000rpm. Makes a lot of difference.
For all the extra around town power, the 6.2L basically gets the same mpg as the ford, but it’s a much easier engine and to find power in na.
At evil twin, so if you want to talk power today, I think the lt1 is better overal vs the gen 3 coyote. A gen 3 coyote is more expensive than an lt1, and it fits easier in anything.
Someone said coyote swaps are common in foxes, and sure they are. But it’s much more involved than putting in an lt1 or a Ford ohv would be.
Stepping back to my original point, ohv v8’s have gotten to be so good (lt1’s, mopar 6.1/6.4 LT4, etc) that the argument for a dohc us mute save rev happy driving. That said, just as ohv’s have evolved into having cylinder deactivation, direct injection, variable valve timing, etc, I think it wouldn’t be very hard to also build one with heavier duty components and some enginuity that could smoothly rev to 8000rpm nice and safe. It may not be 6.2L, but 5.5-6.0 with a short stroke and wide bore wouldn’t be a real issue to get 8k out of.
Again I have put my money where my mouth is, and drank all the koolaid, but the reality I’ve seen is if 400-800hp is the goal, put an ohv in and build it to meet your desired build.
My buddy averages 23mpg with his 2017 camaro ss. My 2012 2.0 turbo gs with a tune averages 22-25 depending my habits. He does t drive like a saint. His best tank was 28mpg almost all highway. Mines been 35 all highway. Thing is he has a v8 with 425whp. I have a crappy 4 banger with 275whp and an exhaust note that’s....
The 2017 Camaro ss 1LE is a damn good value. So is the 2014-16 Chevy SS manual Sedan. Why can’t Ford match these types of cars for the price?
The 2017 Camaro ss 1LE is a damn good value. So is the 2014-16 Chevy SS manual Sedan. Why can’t Ford match these types of cars for the price?
Users who are viewing this thread
