Anyone else frustrated with Ford over the next GT500?

GT Premi

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BUT, a weird thing happened. I love the GT350. I love the NA power plant. I don't bother with the drag strip anymore, and while the GT500 was a sledgehammer on a road course, the GT350 is a scalpel.

Now I'm really in a quandary, I don't like the idea of having the second tier Mustang, but I don't think a blown engine regardless of HP will be as much fun? ...

You already know it's not going to be as much fun. You've experienced it. Forced induction is a blast, but there's just "something" about a high revving, naturally aspirated engine; especially when that engine and the chassis carrying it are perfectly set up for each other. But who knows? Maybe lightning will strike twice for Ford, and the new GT500 will be the GT350R turned up to 11.
 

jtfx6552

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I also don't care what anyone says; there's a reason race cars don't use superchargers. I wouldn't be buying a supercharged car if I was gonna be a huge track rat with it. Great for one lap shootouts though.

See, one really needs both, a GT350 and a GT500....
 

jtfx6552

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You already know it's not going to be as much fun. You've experienced it. Forced induction is a blast, but there's just "something" about a high revving, naturally aspirated engine; especially when that engine and the chassis carrying it are perfectly set up for each other. But who knows? Maybe lightning will strike twice for Ford, and the new GT500 will be the GT350R turned up to 11.

I think you are right, it will be hard to top the GT350 in fun and feel factor. Hoping for a GT350 on 11, we will see.
 

conceptmachine

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Prior to the 350 nobody in a mustang cared About feel, we had SRA for crying outloud. I don’t care if it feels like a video game system, I have my R for feel. The only feel I want from this GT500 is my ass and back plastered against the seat as the tranny is cracking off gears.;)

Seriously tho, it’s a supercharged car, you know what your gonna get, it’s not a box of chocolates.
 

MarcSpaz

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Can’t blame you there. I’m interested in the new GT500, only by a car enthusiast’s standpoint not a buyer’s. But those Dodges sure are impressive. I wouldn’t mind getting a Demon when the prices are down, in about 10-15 years.
That would be a cool to see. What are those crashes Hellcats going for?


Pick your poison.

Last one I saw at auction went for $16k. It was in tough shape, but the engine and trans were dry.

See, one really needs both, a GT350 and a GT500....

As someone who owned both, I can say the no one "needs" either of them... but it's fun as hell to have both.
 
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jvandy50

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Last one I saw at auction went for $16k. It was in tough shape, but the engine and trans were dry.

not too bad when you look at what crate motors with much less power go for in a JK swap. i want to see this happen!
 

MarcSpaz

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Me too. Buddy of mine is a dealer, so I can get in the auctions whenever I want. I'm going to see how the JL shakes out before I commit to it. They are talking about releasing a 4 door pickup with a turbo diesel, factory 3" lift and 35"s. I would rather have that... if it actually gets released.
 

Willie2

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FP 12 by '20. I'm hoping for another truck variant and a big 4 door.
 

THE_EVIL_TW1N

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Prior to the 350 nobody in a mustang cared About feel, we had SRA for crying outloud. I don’t care if it feels like a video game system, I have my R for feel. The only feel I want from this GT500 is my ass and back plastered against the seat as the tranny is cracking off gears.;)

Seriously tho, it’s a supercharged car, you know what your gonna get, it’s not a box of chocolates.
People loved the Boss and the way it drove and felt. It wasn't the absolute best in performance, but was really praised for it's fun factor.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

tt335ci03cobra

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500whp na in 3000lbs is arguably all the motivation any car really needs to be very fast but still very drivable in a great car.

I’d argue that an e85/fbo/tune gt350r with a 3.90-4.10 read is a much better driving experience in all ways vs a zl1 1le or a z06.

The gt350r is 500lbs heavier than I’m talking about, but it’s tech rich and rolling on light wheels as well as properly setup.

A 2500lbs car on 20’ heavy wheels, using a steel flywheel with 1980’s economy steering geometry/design isn’t necessarily going to feel lighter than a well setup 3500lbs car for example. Lots of people pick up the lightest Jtin car they can find and are surprised when sorted cars weighing so much more have better steering feel and turn in. You can’t fix physics, but you can mitigate weight.
 

conceptmachine

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Most of the 'feel' in a SRA is your ass and lower back being beat to smithereens, even in the boss with suspension upgrades, I'm sure. The IRS and magnaride really took away the beating, and allowed us to enjoy the feel of the wheel, and balance of the car, instead of our lower disk getting pulverized. I expect the DCT to enhance the speed of this car, not the feel. Maybe they offer a manual, which would help ease some souls. We know what to expect from a supercharged car tho, unless ford works some magic. A heavier nose and heat soak when ripping it on the track - eventually.
 

tt335ci03cobra

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A well done sra isn’t all that bumpy or choppy with a great watts link, but the polar yaw is still very high.

What I feel between sra and irs is the rears ability to follow in step with the front. Even a heavily worked sra car feels like the rear is receiving the fronts communications via 56k, if at all. Boss 302 with loads of suspension mods feels much much better in this regard but it’s not as compliant or direct as a moderate irs setup.

When you have fixed rear wheels unable to move longitudinaly of each other, handling will always suffer regardless of grip.

That’s my seat of the pants report based on limited but applicable driving stints in a wide range of sra and irs cars. It’s loads easier to link drifts in an irs car for me as well.
 

tt335ci03cobra

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Supercharged engine, regardless of coolers, are temperature slaves. A zl1 1le might stay cool in fall Germany for 2-3 Nurburgring laps, but up the ambient temp 50° and it’s gonna heat up very quickly.

My turbo cobra has a hard time getting to temp in the fall and winter, high boost and all. 10+ pulls and I’ll still be seeing 50-80° iats. Mid summer, 10 pulls will put it into 120+°. No wizards work at play, and I have a fully jet hot coated hotside, exhaust (to and including the tail pipes) diff, oil, brake and (soon) trans coolers as well as a large inter cooler, and aluminum radiator, Lincoln mk8 fan (5000cfm), etc etc. I had cooler oil/water and iat temps after a spirited summer canyon cruise than a bolt on sti and a magnusen supercharged gen 5 Campari and and I found that very funny because they weren’t driving very hard and I was flat footing 800whp on most of the open straights. That said I still pushed 230° coolant temps and 130° iat’s at the hottest. My point is regardless of how well done, a boosted car won’t stay cool if driven hard in heat. My buddies gt350 tech car gets up to 240-250 coolant temp though so but he’s building it up with a supercharger for mainly straight line work. That goes to show that even na cars obviously benefit from real cooling system thought and setup. He built my cooling system for my turbo car and it surpasses his gt350’s stock setup in an na setup.

The gm techs talking about 11 coolers are including the radiator etc, the compressed inter cooler between the blower/valley, etc. By their counting an 03 cobra had 3-4 coolers. Most cars have 2-3. Don’t buy too much into the hype, once the coolant is moving around and the fins get hot, physics are physics, the zl1 1le will fall victim to heat sink, just later on. It may honestly hold up in most 20 minute hpde events very well though.
 
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GT Premi

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When you have fixed rear wheels unable to move longitudinaly of each other, handling will always suffer regardless of grip.

That’s my seat of the pants report based on limited but applicable driving stints in a wide range of sra and irs cars. It’s loads easier to link drifts in an irs car for me as well.

I get what you're saying, BUT the SRA equipped Mustangs have far too many race and championship wins against IRS cars for that to bear truth. A well sorted SRA is every bit as capable as an IRS, unless you're racing on a cobblestone street.
 

MarcSpaz

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@tt335ci03cobra i don't think modern blown cars suffer from heat soak as much as you're implying. I've mentioned this once in this thread already, but my GT350 Tech car vs my Hellcat is a great example.

Last May, in 80 degree weather, I ran laps with the Challenger from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. Ran for 2 hours with the only break being around an hour in for fuel. Took a 30 minute rest and the ran 2 more 30 minute sessions with a 30 minute break in between. I had zero heat issues with the Hellcat. It never saw temps any higher than what I see on the street. Actually it stayed cooler. Stop and go traffic causes way more heat soak in that car than racing does.

I know it's possible to build a nice track car that's blown and can stay cool on the track... just a question of if they will. My GT350 Tech car says it's a coin flip. LoL
 

Tob

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I know it's possible to build a nice track car that's blown and can stay cool on the track... just a question of if they will. My GT350 Tech car says it's a coin flip. LoL

The Tech Pack cars were an attempt to somehow appeal to a certain Mustang buying demographic. The idea to exclude coolers was an error in judgement. I don't see Ford making that mistake on this car and trust that addressing any cooling issues was a major priority.
 

conceptmachine

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Speak for yourself! :) I've always wanted some driving "feel" from my Mustangs, which is why I did suspension work on every one that I've owned, except for the R.
hey if it's any consolation, I think your gonna get your manual in this car but your also gonna get 800hp to go with it. do you still want the manual?
 

tt335ci03cobra

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Gtpremi, I’m not saying on flat ground with a great setup and race slicks that an sra can’t be fast, I’m saying in fun enjoyable street cars, I’ve noticed the irs cars don’t feel like the front and rear are opposing each other.

Even on track, unless you are perfect on line, throttle and brake application, the irs car, all else being equal, will be the faster car.

One very important variable in racing is the driver, much more so than the car. Take a driver winning championships and races in an sra car. Give them the same car but fit with an excellent (obviously to be competitive) irs, and adjust weight/hp accordingly to fit specification. I argue they will be more consistent and faster in the field than with the sra. Dynamic and transient motions are easier in an irs car. An sra car can post very fast laps because ultimately the front suspension sets the car, the rear is mainly maintaining stability and carrying load. Couple a hot lap with traffic though, and now the sra is not as quick to respond as an irs.

That all said, get an excellent team such as Multimatic, and great crews... and you’ll see tons of sra wins against m3’s and so on in grand am cup. I loved 05-09 fr500c races. The 10-14 stuff was also epic. Watching an sra mustang beat on irs euro and worldly cars was great. That said, the gt350rc is also kickin major ass most of the time. I’d need to look up the teams but I think the mustang teams are just filled with awesome talent and drive to win.

At marcspaz, a well setup blower or turbo car can hot lap well in 80° temps, no argument there. Like I said, my high hp turbo cobra did fine by any standards in 100° canyon driving at high altitude. Heat, humidity and low oxygen is a recipe for detonation, and ridiculous iat’s, but a big fan, lots of radiator, coolant and tertiary coolers go a long way in staving it off. Couple it with heat coated exhaust and a free flowing hood to minimize engine bay heat, plan the hot side sizing right, etc and you get great results.

JGTC championships were dominated by turbo cars, long races in heat etc.

Anyways I don’t wanna drag on. My point is a factory car is less likely to be very well thought out for heat concerns but yes the zl1 1LE is on the right track. I’d also heat coat the headers, and get a better fan, resize some plumbing for less restriction, channel fresh cold air better, hook up a freon charged killer chiller esc design to the sandwiched supercharger inter cooler, and semi box the front heat exchanger with heat coating, etc etc. I’d also pulley it and go full bolt on which would need all that stuff to run basically as cool as stock haha. Im a glutton for expensive lessons, I find it fun to ruin a car with extra hp then try to make it work via cooling/grip/weight reduction etc. When I’m older, I’ll likely leave well enough alone... right now though I’ve got the bug
 

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