Possibly need rebuilt motor retimed

So i got my motor back from the builder and its been sitting on the stand while i get more parts. I wanted to verify and or swap to oil pump gears to billet opg's. Removed timing cover, I got the crank to what i think is tdc. Timing marks lined up based off a picture a got off web. Could see #1 piston through spark plug hole.

Removed passenger side chain tensioner. When i went to remove the chain, the cam spocket moved. Rotated 4-6° counterclockwise. Tried to line chain back up and the chain is off almost 2 links using marks i made on links. Looking at the position of the timing marks now it looks closer to the picture than before. Also looking at the copper links o. The chains, they never lined up with the timung marks after rotating motir twice. Really not sure if it was ever timed properly in the first place.

Why would the cam move when removing the chain? When i broke motor down before rebuild, i didnt even try and get it to tdc and cams never moved a inch. Below is the timing position after chain. Yellow mark is where timing mark is on crank and approx where the cam gear was to start.

Sorry this is as long as it is. It looks like im going to have to get someone to come over and re-time the whole thing. Id hate to try and get marks back to where they were and it was right to begin with. Any suggestions woyld be greatly appreciated. Thx

The cam will spin when you pull the chain off because of the force of the rocker on the lobe and unfortunately the dots will not line up after spinning the motor until you spin it like 96 times or something like that, but i am not sure why. My first time putting my motor together it absolutely scared me to death because i just knew i was going to cram a valve into a piston, but a few discussions with others on this forum gave me the confidence to just go for it. Best suggestion in your case is to get it back to TDC, line up the dots in your reference image, and go for it....

Do your chains have the copper colored links on them?.. if so, timing is actually pretty straight forward and it's a matter of lining the marks on sprockets to the copper links on the chains. If you get a buddy as an extra set of hands to move/hold the cams in place, it helps a lot imo. Did you already replace all the timing chains and guides ? If not, I would recommend to order the Ford Racing 4v timing kit as it comes with a pretty solid set of instructions.

As long as the "dot" on your crankshaft sprocket is pointing straight down (this puts the key way at about 11 o'clock) Then you are all set with your starting point with the crank in posisiton, and from there you can go by the links on the chains. Your timing marks are the copper links links on the chains and need to be matched up to the marks on the cam sprockets. And it's normal and may be necessary to rotate the cams some to get the marks to align, the cams moved on you due to tension on the valve springs.

Best of luck !

I Just want to add one more note, it's normal that once you rotate the motor for the alignment marks on the sprockets to no longer line up with the copper links on the chains, those marks are ONLY there for initial installation, once you begin rotating the engine, all bets are off. It takes something like 700 times of rotating the motor over for all of the marks to magically align again.. I cannot remember the exact number, but it's a lot. Once the Engine is fully rotated over, after that point you go off of the marks on the sprockets only, they need to be in the positions indicated on the diagram once the dot on the crank sprocket is straight down and the piston is at TDC.

Straybullitt and slonech, thanks for replying.
The motor has a completely new timing set. Chains,guides ,tensioners,cams gears,sprokets,everything.
When i first pulled the cover and couldnt get the dots and links to match it didnt bother me because i figured if the timing marks started in the right spots when the shop timed it chain orientation shouldn't matter.
So basically i should be able to rotate the cam gear clockwise and align my marks from chain with the crank spocket and all should be well.
I will also look over the timing instructions and see if its something i can do without having to purchase any expensive one time use tools. You guys make it sound easy. It probably is, just need my balls to drop, man up and get er done lol.

haha, I agree it's intimidating and I had timed a 2v quite a few times before, but it really is just a matter of getting the crank in position first and then going off of the dark links on the chains. Like I said if you can get another set of hands to help hold cams in place it makes it a lot easier, especially when installing the tensioners.

** "So basically i should be able to rotate the cam gear clockwise and align my marks from chain with the crank sprocket and all should be well." **

I'm not fully agreeing with this, maybe you meant to say Cam sprocket.. but..

You want to start with getting the crank in position very first thing, with the dot on the crank sprocket pointing straight down, looks like that is where you have it so that is good, now line up one of dark chain links on the long chain on the crank sprocket dot, then the other dark link then needs to align with the mark on your big exhaust cam gear sprocket, and this is the point in which you likely will need to rotate the cam slightly for the mark to line up to the dark chain link. Doesn't look like you disturbed the timing of the intake cam/(small chain) at all so that should all be correctly set, once you have it back together just make sure all the marks on the cam sprockets are in the correct positions once you have rotated the Engine over twice and the dot on the crank sprocket is back to pointing straight down.

I meant crank sprocket/gear. So basically i mark the both chains on the links that were lined up with all the timing mark(cams and crank). When i removed the tensioner and lifted the chain off the crank sprocket the whole pass cam assembly rotated(secondary chains too). I never moved the chain off the cam sprocket as you can see by the marks on the cam sporoket. Both cams moved as they both are tied into that one cam sprocket. If i rotate the cam sprocket (moving black mark to where the yellow mark is) i can get my marked link back to its original position on the crank timing dot. Right now its 2 links off unless i move cams back to there original position.

Im thinking about just redoing the whole thing because i want to upgrade the pass secondary tensioner while everything is apart. But then i would have to remove the cams followers so cams can be rotated without moving valves. Im hoping when the cams moved they didnt force a valve into a piston. When the cam gear moved it was very quick and violent sounding which worries me.

Don't sweat the cam moving on it's own, there will be no damage from that. The cam cannot self open a valve. Your only force is that of the valve spring, which wants to do it's job and close the valve.. therefore that will only allow whichever valve was already partially open, to close.

I see now what you are saying now about moving the cam to allow you to get your own marks you made aligned back up on the crank sprocket, and yes that will work. But If all else fails, as you mentioned, it may be easier to remove both chains completely and start over from scratch using the factory timing marks.

Remove all the followers. It will be way easier to time.

32vApe said:

Remove all the followers. It will be way easier to time.

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I saw that video a few days ago. thinking about using that method or amazon has a spring compressor tool for $19.99.

I've done it multiple times that way. You need a specific compressor for the springs close to the plug wells. So the $19.99 probably isn't the right one.

As long as you are going through the trouble of timing your chains, you may as well degree the cams. There are a few more tools you will need to do it, but the results are well worth the effort. Degreeing cams is especially important if your heads or block resurfaced during rebuild.

This forum is full of informaiton on the process.