I'll put down a deposit if you ever decide to make another run.
Just PM me even if its a year from now.
Just PM me even if its a year from now.
Bringing the 4lb Caged lower back from the Dead?
- Thread starter cj428mach
- Start date
428CJ - I hear you. In summary, aftermarket parts have little or no warranty, and, money & time are at the roots of most things evil.
You developed this on the fly, and did refuse to ship them out (or make a much larger batch) until you had some confidence in them by using and abusing (working it hard) the pulley, basically design feedback from the field. There have been a few minor hiccups, but not bad. A few damper bushings were short-lived/too soft for the specific app, and a few total part assembly or vehicle assembly issues. Many people were rebuilding their pulley cage for the first time, so mistakes are most likely to happen the first time, or after a million times. Go with a Metco (un-damped, under-supported pulley) and hard stop solid idler tightened until the drive belt's eyes water, and it could very well destroy most of the engine, a risk most people (the majority) are not willing to take. It has also been argued a few completely stock cobras broke crank snouts - a few out of 19,100 03-04's. Metco has claimed to sell thousands of Cobra crank pulley kits, and several have had serious issue (destroy entire engine) and many have had some issue (bolts coming loose, maybe then break engine), belt slip issues, because pulley is no longer damped, then they tighten the shit out of the belt, then if your lucky, the tension just accelerates the wear of the bearings (idlers, blower, mains, alternator) and reduces the belt slip and life, of course. It sounds like the Metco has a higher risk of failure, or at least opens up a whole other can of worms to say the least. When it comes right down to it, the OEM's don't do anything unless they have to, I'm sure SVT felt they had to have a crank support. They did not do it just for the fun of it, and that was when it was making 390/390 with 8-10 psi boost, turning the eaton 13,021 rpm at 6250 engine rev limiter. There's a whole team of engineers at the OEM level that just work on the FEAD in ford speak (Front Engine Accessory Drive).
At any rate, since you say you are done, best case, would you give up your suppliers contact info, part numbers (if any). This way, your work would not be wasted for the people that still want or need a caged lower. We will promise to pursue this job at our own risk. If you are not willing to give up suppliers, can you give part numbers, dimensional details, tolerances, part material, maybe a CAD file for the pulley? Some of the more basic info could be pieced together from the last 26 pages on this post, but there's plenty more to tell. I wish Metco would make this. Would that offend you? I see Innovators West makes the Cobra crank damper both ways, it would only make sense to make the pulley both ways at this point. They could have several new products to sell, and sell they would. The crank pulley (with a few sizes they offer), the properly sized idler, the crank pulley rotational stop, a selection of tune-able damper bushings based on hardness and feedback from the field. I'm sure some of the people that already had the solid Metco setup would sell it, and Metco could sell another pulley kit to an existing/previous customer too, for about the same price as their current Cobra crank kit sells for, and make plenty of money doing it. Don't we know money is the root of most things evil? If Metco doesn't chime in to this post already, by me typing Metco 10 times, all the SVT owners that want this need to politely tell them to get their head out of their ass about this issue and their current design and start making aluminum chips. Then, there would be no reason not to buy a crank pulley kit. They do make good parts.
Damn, I just about blew a gasket about this issue already, and just now ran across this....
https://www.svtperformance.com/forums/threads/crank-snapped-at-pulley.1130584/
You developed this on the fly, and did refuse to ship them out (or make a much larger batch) until you had some confidence in them by using and abusing (working it hard) the pulley, basically design feedback from the field. There have been a few minor hiccups, but not bad. A few damper bushings were short-lived/too soft for the specific app, and a few total part assembly or vehicle assembly issues. Many people were rebuilding their pulley cage for the first time, so mistakes are most likely to happen the first time, or after a million times. Go with a Metco (un-damped, under-supported pulley) and hard stop solid idler tightened until the drive belt's eyes water, and it could very well destroy most of the engine, a risk most people (the majority) are not willing to take. It has also been argued a few completely stock cobras broke crank snouts - a few out of 19,100 03-04's. Metco has claimed to sell thousands of Cobra crank pulley kits, and several have had serious issue (destroy entire engine) and many have had some issue (bolts coming loose, maybe then break engine), belt slip issues, because pulley is no longer damped, then they tighten the shit out of the belt, then if your lucky, the tension just accelerates the wear of the bearings (idlers, blower, mains, alternator) and reduces the belt slip and life, of course. It sounds like the Metco has a higher risk of failure, or at least opens up a whole other can of worms to say the least. When it comes right down to it, the OEM's don't do anything unless they have to, I'm sure SVT felt they had to have a crank support. They did not do it just for the fun of it, and that was when it was making 390/390 with 8-10 psi boost, turning the eaton 13,021 rpm at 6250 engine rev limiter. There's a whole team of engineers at the OEM level that just work on the FEAD in ford speak (Front Engine Accessory Drive).
At any rate, since you say you are done, best case, would you give up your suppliers contact info, part numbers (if any). This way, your work would not be wasted for the people that still want or need a caged lower. We will promise to pursue this job at our own risk. If you are not willing to give up suppliers, can you give part numbers, dimensional details, tolerances, part material, maybe a CAD file for the pulley? Some of the more basic info could be pieced together from the last 26 pages on this post, but there's plenty more to tell. I wish Metco would make this. Would that offend you? I see Innovators West makes the Cobra crank damper both ways, it would only make sense to make the pulley both ways at this point. They could have several new products to sell, and sell they would. The crank pulley (with a few sizes they offer), the properly sized idler, the crank pulley rotational stop, a selection of tune-able damper bushings based on hardness and feedback from the field. I'm sure some of the people that already had the solid Metco setup would sell it, and Metco could sell another pulley kit to an existing/previous customer too, for about the same price as their current Cobra crank kit sells for, and make plenty of money doing it. Don't we know money is the root of most things evil? If Metco doesn't chime in to this post already, by me typing Metco 10 times, all the SVT owners that want this need to politely tell them to get their head out of their ass about this issue and their current design and start making aluminum chips. Then, there would be no reason not to buy a crank pulley kit. They do make good parts.
Damn, I just about blew a gasket about this issue already, and just now ran across this....
https://www.svtperformance.com/forums/threads/crank-snapped-at-pulley.1130584/
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The machine shop designed and possesses the CAD drawings and I'm sure would never give them to me as theres no gain in it for them although I've never asked maybe they feel I own them. I do know they'd never produce them without my permission and they probably wouldn't want to deal with anyone unless they were buying 100+ pulleys. Even at 100 units that's absolutely peanuts to this machine shop. This shop runs 3 shifts with 50 employees cranking out tons of products non stop. This isn't a tiny shop with a few filth covered employees like most are use to seeing.
As for any help I can be to the community as far as details I doubt I can be of much help more than this thread. I've posted part numbers of bushings, bearings, etc. The pulley is dimensioned out exactly as the original just in 8.6" diameter. A machinist would need a stock or 4lb pulley in their possession to completely dimension it out.
I also personally feel that a 4lb caged lower is only good for approximately 700rwhp and 2.3l blowers, anything over that is pushing it. These are not a 1 size fit all unit. In order to push it further than that you need to upgrade the driveshaft and increase the amount of bushings like WS6JJP did on his personal lower. I can't say I'm a believer in harder bushings as you need give in the lower and harder bushings reduce/eliminate that, only time will tell if its a good solution.
I might hit up the original machine shop and see what my options are.
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Just changed out my 60a bushing material for 80a. I am now on 22psi. And the 60a were starting to crack slightly, so I decided to just air on the side of caution and put the next strongest material in there.
Thanks for the update. Keep me updated on how the 80 holds up. If you weren't aware you can change the bushing material with the lower installed on the car.
Really? Getting the drive off the tribar usually is pretty hard.
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Changed my bushings in like 30min without taking the pulley off, cj showed me to just take the locking hub off and flip it over, put it back on and slap a socket on the hex, wrench it right off no problem. Just make sure you mark how it was all "clocked" and put it all back how it was.
Yep this is how I've done it. I've only disassembled mine twice once to install the 1 piece locking hub, and the second time to change the bushings. I did all this with the lower installed on the car and just removed the tribar. I have some old "prototype" locking hubs that I use as a tool as waffleman described so i don't risk damaging the locking hub.
post picture online temporary
Used 75D bushing material. Going on a 3.4 crusher. I will let you know how the car, crank, and lower all turn out after the dyno and some street time.
I need to get my ass in gear and install mine. I've been holding off, debating on a bigger blower.
Change out those bushingsI need to get my ass in gear and install mine. I've been holding off, debating on a bigger blower.
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I definitely will, if I go with the big blower. Probably not necessary with my ported Eaton and the 2.93 upper.
When I took mine out with 5k miles they still looked almost new.
Anyone know the bolt size used for the idler pulley? And Or best place to get a replacement?
Mine were still in very good shape but were getting kinda brittle. I don't know if this is the material or if some of the oil I used for install added to the degradation. I'm now running the 60a stuff Rymax posted and will see how it does. The nice thing about the black stuff is it doesn't show up on the pulley. There was a light amount of orange dust that would show up on my pulley over times. At least if it happens now it'll be black.
I don't think it'll matter to you as your car is usually spotless anyways, lol.
I'm being lazy here and don't feel like leafing through 20+ pages. I would like to buy some of the 60a just to have on hand if /when needed or want to change. link or anyone willing to sell me some.
thanks!
thanks!
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