Demon on the Loose...

Fourcam380

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2017
Messages
216
Sure I'm worked up. I have a guy saying I'm making posts from another world, and you guys are the ones passing off incorrect info as a fact.

So let's take the assertion that it's because of 1:1.

6500rpm is going to hit 175mph. The redline is above that if I recall correct. Explain the extra 7mph above 168mph. I'll wait.

If the car is accelerating at around .4g at 140mph, it will not drop to weed range by 168 causing it to be unable to rap out its 4th gear.

This idea that the car reaches its top speed in a 1:1 is fine in a stock 150hp Corolla with no torque. Except if that isn't the case anymore. That car even reaches a higher speed in its overdrive gears.

It would be much easier to compose a list of cars than reach a higher speed in their overdrive gears than it would be to compose one about cars that do not.

Go drive a stock Subaru BRZ. 5th or 4th (manual/auto) are the 1:1 gears. Both reach ~127mph. The listed top speed for both cars is 137-147mph.

Again, thatcar has a terrible powerband for acceleration. Very little torque. It reaches its top speed in

Maybe I'm the only one that's taken notice of what you've been posting in a few threads in this forum, maybe not. Throw these posts together with the FPC in the next GT500 equating to a Smooth engine and you may see where I'm coming from.

There's a lot of walk back and redirecting going on, lots of math on paper that doesn't account for all pertinent variables and even more in the way of blanket statements being made.

My world = living what I reference. Not just in theory.
 

Fourcam380

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2017
Messages
216
The only way to keep highway mpg down is to keep revs down via grading at those speeds. Meaning keep the rear gear lower and hit top speed in a lower gear than is ultimately available. Out of all the ZF 8a variants how many hit vmax in a gear higher than 6th?
 

tt335ci03cobra

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
6,963
Location
USA
image.png
image.png
All of the v8 dodges using the z8 hit higher speed in 7th. The v6 may even be able to.



The FPC is a better engine for high rpm driving. It won't be as choppy in the rpm range you want to drive a sports car.

Call it anything you like. I call that a smooth usable engine.

If you want to split hairs, an fpc in idle to 2500rpm will be rougher.

Walking back? I haven't walked anything back about gearing because I've played with many cars, many ways, with many gear setups.
 

tt335ci03cobra

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
6,963
Location
USA
167mph vs 178 in a 475hp hp Dodge Charger superbee. Admittedly it had a .35ish cofd.

It's also down about 400hp from the demon.

A stock 03 cobra hits 164mph in 5th, not 4th, when the limiter kicks in.

The hellcat hits 190+ in 7th, not 6th

A c6 z06 does 200mph in 5th not 4th

A Dodge Viper does 200mph in overdrive

A Mazda Miata does 140 in overdrive

An s2000 does 150 in overdrive

A stock 2000 mustang gt does 145mph in 5th

A stock c63 amg tops out at 170+ in 5th governor removed

A stock 2013 gt500 does 202 in 5th

A stock zl1 does 185 in 5th

A stock Nissan nismo z33 does 155 in 6th

A 2012 regal gs does 150 in 6th

My 03 cobra tops out far above 160mph in 4th. I've buried the speedo to redline in 5th. Pulls very hard to 200+ for a street car with 11psi.

A ws6 tops out higher in 5th gear

I could literally go on for years
 

Fourcam380

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2017
Messages
216
3.27, 4.10,4.30, 4.56 on same car same engine. 4.56 5th at .68 added 10mph to vmax over 1:1 4th. What are you using for tire size for the hellcat calcs?
 

tt335ci03cobra

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
6,963
Location
USA
28".

If you have something awful like an mt86, and drop from a 1:1 to a 1:.67, the. Yes, 4th is probably going to be the gear you top out in. Single overdrive transmissions have too steep a drop most of the time. (Stock to bolt on power, etc.)

In double overdrive transmissions like the t56/tr6060, zf8, etc, the drop to a .80-.85 from 1:1 isn't bad.

The coyote cars foo have a steep drop.

The worst is 4spd autos that go from 1:1 to .50, it's terrible
 

tt335ci03cobra

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
6,963
Location
USA
When I had a 3.08 rear, 800whp setup, 28" tire, and 6500rpm redline, I still was accelerating in 5th very hard after getting out of 4th.

4th was a 1:1, 5th and 6th are viper spec in my car, .74, .50.

My current combo is the same, but 7500rpm redline and 3.73 gears, but much more top end charge.

The 2000 gt I mentioned had 3.73's or 4.10's iirc. I've been in stock ones that have been the same though.

The cars that don't do well in overdrive have single overdrive transmissions.

The zf8's in question have .84, .67 iirc 7th and 8th.
 

tt335ci03cobra

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
6,963
Location
USA
@MarcSpaz

Back out, stay in, no skin off my back either way.

I'm not "believing what I want"

You are probably used to mt86's and single overdrive transmissions, as well as bolt on coyote power/gt350 power. And even the gt350 picks up speed in 6th vs 5th, but just barely.

Bottom line, the demon is rated/limited to 168 because of its tires. We all saw the gearing in 6th goes beyond 168 so even that argument is sailed and sunk. Aero wise, a Range Rover SUV with 315hp fewer does 162mph with a worse coefficient of drag.

I'll be the easy going person and say to you that you can believe what you'd like, and that's fine. Having personally driven 10+ cars to higher top speeds in their overdrive gears, you aren't selling me on the logic your trying to use.

Another example, dodge themselves say the demon is speed limited because of tire, not hp, drag or gearing. But what do they know, they just build and test the thing.

I guess if that's not enough, I just uploaded a video of a stock 425-475hp charger superbee picking up 10mph by going into 7th which is a .86 iirc.

At this point I'm done presenting facts and reciting real world events. Google and YouTube also have tons of evidence to corroborate what I've said.

Additionally, even a stock 3v mustang picks up top speed (2-3mph) using 5th instead of 4th. All while dropping from 1:1 to .67 with only 300hp.
 

MarcSpaz

Resident Trouble Maker
Established Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
2,760
Location
Location: Location:
@MarcSpaz
You are probably used to mt86's and single overdrive transmissions, as well as bolt on coyote power/gt350 power. And even the gt350 picks up speed in 6th vs 5th, but just barely.

Along with the GT350 and the GT500, I own an 8 speed Challenger Hellcat. I know how the car runs. I know how many high HP cars run. I've seen plenty of A8 Hellcat owners make 2 mile runs lose mph when they shift to 7... every one of them, in fact. I don't have any interest in debating your mathematical hypothetical when I have experienced and witness reality.

That's why I don't want to debate it.
 

tt335ci03cobra

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
6,963
Location
USA
Ive been in all of those on freeway pulls. Stretch their legs past a mile, you'll see they all do even higher in their overdrives. It'll take about 2-3 miles. The gt500 needs a 3.55 rear or full bolt ons and tune to make 5th worth anything. That's from real world experience.

My personal project car reaches 7000rpms in 5th when I chicken out. Its still pulling well. That's on 91 octane with 11psi, 26.4" drag radials, and a .74 5th. I could easily take it to 7500+. It's not accelerating in the weeds at those ranges. I just have no need to go that fast in the car as it sits.

The top speed of a car is not what it reaches at a Texas mile event. I'm not attacking you. You do know the top speed isn't reached in a mile. Let's not insult each others intelligence.

Take it to the salt flats and run it 3 miles wot with a 2 mile cooldown. Hit an empty biway at 3am. Pay to play/ship a car to the autobahn, go hit nardo, I don't really care. My point is you know your cars, save the gt500, all have higher top speeds than what they hit in a mile in 1:1 gears if you stretch their legs in their overdrives.

To contrast, I could launch my car hard through 1st then dump it into 5th and say look, it only reached 125mph in the 1/4 mile. It can trap 145 in 4th if I run each gear to redline. That 125mph in 5th doesn't mean the car is unable to accelerate passed 125mph in 5th. That means it can't do so in a quarter mile. That's what you've cited happening with hellcats at mile events doing better staying in 6th. If they run the mile and keep going, they'd reach 190+ in 7th around the 2-3 mile point.
 

biminiLX

never stock
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
13,253
Location
Toledo, OH
Getting back on topic, I do honestly have to say that as a Ford guy who loves both my modded 2014 GT500 and my stock '16 Hellcat, SRT is killing it for street/strip guys.
I was forced to build my own '14 GT500 'Demon' because SVT refused to offer a 'drag pack' and only cater to open track guys with the 'track pack'. The guys that autoX/open track are a minority in America vs huge street power that translates to the drag strip and top speed events.
I'm well aware parts that make a car more competent on a road course also make them perform as a better well-rounded street car, but SRT proved with the Demon that we all knew you could also do street/strip in the same OEM way.
Ford in the '60s offered 'drag packs' on their Mustangs, and in my opinion really missed the boat by not continuing it modern day.
The GT350 is an amazing machine and I will eventually own one; but Ford really needs to give the next GT500 focus on street/strip.
I'd love a GT500 that is essentially a GT350 with forced induction and 750+ hp with the 10spd auto.
Again, props to SRT and Dodge for both the Demon and the Hellcat, amazing American muscle!
-J
 

Corbic

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
10,931
Location
Desert Oasis
Ford was also slower then the Charger R/T and Hemi.

As I recall one of the big challenges of filming Bullit was not letting the Charger to "run away" during the chase scene.

Mustangs have always been "lighter better handling" cars. Mopars have always been "behind" and compensating with value and horse power.

Example, '69 Charger was styled more like a '67 Chevelle and Dodges pony car didn't come out until '70.

Challenger today is an old and extremely heavy platform. Dodge honestly can't do anything with it but add horsepower.

They are trapped stylistically with the retro look, and unlike a SN/NE Mustang, there are no "easy" weight savings to be had.


Sent from my iPhone using svtperformance.com
 

David Neibert

Member
Established Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
272
Location
St. Charles, MO
Looks like that's the route I am going as well. Although, I did write to VMP about building my car up. We shall see.
How do you like the Hellcat? I hear they are beasts! Did you get the M6 or A8. I'd probably get the A8.

Sorry for the late response, I check in here every few months to see if there is any news about a new GT500 and I just now saw this. I have the 8 spd auto and love it. Anyone who buys a 6 spd manual Hellcat is at least 1/2 slower.

The Hellcat Challenger has been great and the only real complaint I've got is that they didn't put a stronger driveshaft in it. It's also real hard on the rear tires and mine were toast at only 2300 miles. A few months ago I put a set of wider rear wheels and some Nitto Drag radials on, so I can see what it will do on the track. That made it a lot quicker on the street and these are just the crappy 555Rs.

No desire to get a Demon...just can't get past those silly fender flares and 18" drag radials on all 4 corners.

Be back in another 4 months.

David
PCP Hellcat 071017.jpg
 

ricardoa1

Member
Established Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Messages
288
Location
Boston, MA
Sorry for the late response, I check in here every few months to see if there is any news about a new GT500 and I just now saw this. I have the 8 spd auto and love it. Anyone who buys a 6 spd manual Hellcat is at least 1/2 slower.

The Hellcat Challenger has been great and the only real complaint I've got is that they didn't put a stronger driveshaft in it. It's also real hard on the rear tires and mine were toast at only 2300 miles. A few months ago I put a set of wider rear wheels and some Nitto Drag radials on, so I can see what it will do on the track. That made it a lot quicker on the street and these are just the crappy 555Rs.

No desire to get a Demon...just can't get past those silly fender flares and 18" drag radials on all 4 corners.

Be back in another 4 months.

DavidView attachment 94822


Sent from my SM-G920T using the svtperformance.com mobile app
 

biminiLX

never stock
Established Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
13,253
Location
Toledo, OH
Sorry for the late response, I check in here every few months to see if there is any news about a new GT500 and I just now saw this. I have the 8 spd auto and love it. Anyone who buys a 6 spd manual Hellcat is at least 1/2 slower.

The Hellcat Challenger has been great and the only real complaint I've got is that they didn't put a stronger driveshaft in it. It's also real hard on the rear tires and mine were toast at only 2300 miles. A few months ago I put a set of wider rear wheels and some Nitto Drag radials on, so I can see what it will do on the track. That made it a lot quicker on the street and these are just the crappy 555Rs.

No desire to get a Demon...just can't get past those silly fender flares and 18" drag radials on all 4 corners.

Be back in another 4 months.

DavidView attachment 94822
The A8 truly is the only legit Hellcat option. My friend is a good drag racer and NO changes other than 275/40/20 stock size 555Rs on his '16 Challenger HC got him a 10.78@129 on a regular test and tune in average DA.
My friend's stock 6R auto Coyote also is a seriously stout trans, so even though I'm a hard core gear banger, my next GT500 will be auto.
I also have no desire to buy a Demon, I call my built '14 GT500 my own Demon killer :)
As stated earlier, can't take away from SRT how good the Hellcat package is and fill the street/strip American muscle space everyone else ignored.
Guarantee Ford would outsell a GT500 drag pack over track pack.
-J
 

tt335ci03cobra

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
6,963
Location
USA
image.png


Demon is really a force to be reckoned with assuming you have a bone stock trinity.

They ran 11.0's with it. Correct that to whatever you want given the variables.

I called this months ago. The 9.65 is a hero run, most 9's will be 9.7 to 9.9, and they will be scarce compared to the hundreds of passes we'll see in the low to mid 10's. Not slow by any means, but nothing to be so scared about.

A trinity car on slicks with a tune pulley and full exhaust is probably door to door with these things.

A tvs 03 cobra with full bolt ons and e85 pushing ~650whp will hang just fine as well IMO.

I think the real trap we'll see on these demons is 135 range. Lots of us have gone that and faster with our old and archaic svt products.

Not bashing the car, but I called this. The marketing hype and hero run stuff is great and all but real world, people are going to be paying $85k for a hellcat+ with drag radials at all four corners for whatever reason.

I'd still rather buy a trinity, get slicks/skinnies, and bolt ons. At full weight with a nice interior that's a 3900lbs car. The demon is still 4200lbs, and optioned with an interior fitting a $40k car (not close to $85k stuff, sorry) you're looking at 4350lbs+.

Hype machine was fun, but physics are physics. Sorry to the fan boys, carry on.
 

Users who are viewing this thread



Top